11 ms·

Was Steve Jobs not a megalomaniac surrounded by a cult of personality?

odiroot 5y ago
I guess the difference is, there was still a lot of substance behind Jobs. And delivering (mostly) good products. Now we're dealing with Elizabeth Holmes et al, who just cargo cult off Jobs' legend.
- Broken_Hippo 5y ago
  Now we're dealing with Elizabeth Holmes et al, who just cargo cult off Jobs' legend Frauds have always been with us - charismatic frauds, even. That's generally how they defraud. How many times have people sold things like the Eiffel tower or various bridges around the world? How else did we get to Ponzi schemes and the MLMs that are the fallout (and technically totally not pyramid schemes)?
  - wolverine876 5y ago
    > Frauds have always been with us ... This is the excuse of frauds - to try to normalize it. The amount of fraud is something we can have a large impact on, just like other diseases, and the frauds are responsible for their behavior - there is no fate or destiny that makes them do it. They have free will and make choices to hurt others. Currently, we aren't doing enough about fraud, and it's Orwellian to see people making efforts to normalize it.
    - Broken_Hippo 5y ago
      It isn't that folks normalize fraud, but rather that fraud has been a thread in humanity for, well, a very very long time indeed, probably before we wrote this stuff down. In other words, it is normal for societies to have some fraud - though, it isn't a "normal" behavior since most folks aren't out defrauding folks on a large scale. People act like fraud is a modern thing, and it isn't - and definitely isn't a sign that we are just doing worse now than in some romanticized past. If we don't acknowledge that it is a thing humans do and have done for a long time, our solutions will never be adequate (if that is possible). We really should be learning from the past and applying some of those lessons to the modern ways folks do fraud. Charisma has been intertwined with fraud for eons as well. If something is fairly common among fraudsters, then it benefits us to point this out.
      - wolverine876 5y ago
        That's quite a strawperson - I haven't seen anyone say anything like that. Can you give some examples? The issue is the amount of fraud, obviously. My point is that people keep trying to downplay it and normalize it, including, IMHO, the comments in this thread. My perception is that the amount is much higher now than even the recent past, and that it's normalized and even celebrated by some.
wolverine876 5y ago
Very interesting point. I think the difference is apparent, but how to define it? First, while he was very confident, I don't know that I'd call him a megalomaniac. Second, he didn't encourage a cult of personality or manipulate it - he didn't spend his time inflaming it, encouraging it, toying with it; and he didn't use his power to troll and disrupt society.
- stickfigure 5y ago
  I'm confused by the categorical distinction you are trying to make between Jobs and Musk. What's the problem with electric cars that (almost) drive themselves, rockets that land themselves, and broadband internet in remote places?
  - headass 5y ago
    he calls people pedos for no reason and then bitched about being sued
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - vecinu 5y ago
    Elon is manipulating markets with his tweets (See the 420 debacle), insulting random people and lying about how advanced FSD is. Please look at all the crazy tweets he posted [1] in the last few years, he is a manipulator and a liar. [1] https://elonmusk.today/ https://elonmusk.today/
    - Negitivefrags 5y ago
      I’m not sure I would agree that this is lying or manipulation in the way that you would normally define those things. I do think Elon is a bit of a troll, and also that he is prone to saying things that he thinks are probably true without really verifying them fully. I think that he says things on social media with approximately the same level of internal surety that you might apply to talking to a friend in a casual situation. You might be quite willing to say to a friend “we are going to finish the X project in 6 months” without really calculating the odds of that actually happening, and without your friend calling you a liar in 6 months when that doesn’t happen. Now you can argue that he should apply a larger degree of rigor when positing on social media because he is a famous person running a big company, and maybe so. But he might also argue that why should he be held to a higher standard on Twitter than any random joe posting garbage to thier feed for friends to read?

I guess the difference is, there was still a lot of substance behind Jobs. And delivering (mostly) good products. Now we're dealing with Elizabeth Holmes et al, who just cargo cult off Jobs' legend.

Broken_Hippo 5y ago
Now we're dealing with Elizabeth Holmes et al, who just cargo cult off Jobs' legend Frauds have always been with us - charismatic frauds, even. That's generally how they defraud. How many times have people sold things like the Eiffel tower or various bridges around the world? How else did we get to Ponzi schemes and the MLMs that are the fallout (and technically totally not pyramid schemes)?
- wolverine876 5y ago
  > Frauds have always been with us ... This is the excuse of frauds - to try to normalize it. The amount of fraud is something we can have a large impact on, just like other diseases, and the frauds are responsible for their behavior - there is no fate or destiny that makes them do it. They have free will and make choices to hurt others. Currently, we aren't doing enough about fraud, and it's Orwellian to see people making efforts to normalize it.
  - Broken_Hippo 5y ago
    It isn't that folks normalize fraud, but rather that fraud has been a thread in humanity for, well, a very very long time indeed, probably before we wrote this stuff down. In other words, it is normal for societies to have some fraud - though, it isn't a "normal" behavior since most folks aren't out defrauding folks on a large scale. People act like fraud is a modern thing, and it isn't - and definitely isn't a sign that we are just doing worse now than in some romanticized past. If we don't acknowledge that it is a thing humans do and have done for a long time, our solutions will never be adequate (if that is possible). We really should be learning from the past and applying some of those lessons to the modern ways folks do fraud. Charisma has been intertwined with fraud for eons as well. If something is fairly common among fraudsters, then it benefits us to point this out.
    - wolverine876 5y ago
      That's quite a strawperson - I haven't seen anyone say anything like that. Can you give some examples? The issue is the amount of fraud, obviously. My point is that people keep trying to downplay it and normalize it, including, IMHO, the comments in this thread. My perception is that the amount is much higher now than even the recent past, and that it's normalized and even celebrated by some.

wolverine876 5y ago

Very interesting point. I think the difference is apparent, but how to define it? First, while he was very confident, I don't know that I'd call him a megalomaniac. Second, he didn't encourage a cult of personality or manipulate it - he didn't spend his time inflaming it, encouraging it, toying with it; and he didn't use his power to troll and disrupt society.

stickfigure 5y ago
I'm confused by the categorical distinction you are trying to make between Jobs and Musk. What's the problem with electric cars that (almost) drive themselves, rockets that land themselves, and broadband internet in remote places?
- headass 5y ago
  he calls people pedos for no reason and then bitched about being sued
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- vecinu 5y ago
  Elon is manipulating markets with his tweets (See the 420 debacle), insulting random people and lying about how advanced FSD is. Please look at all the crazy tweets he posted [1] in the last few years, he is a manipulator and a liar. [1] https://elonmusk.today/ https://elonmusk.today/
  - Negitivefrags 5y ago
    I’m not sure I would agree that this is lying or manipulation in the way that you would normally define those things. I do think Elon is a bit of a troll, and also that he is prone to saying things that he thinks are probably true without really verifying them fully. I think that he says things on social media with approximately the same level of internal surety that you might apply to talking to a friend in a casual situation. You might be quite willing to say to a friend “we are going to finish the X project in 6 months” without really calculating the odds of that actually happening, and without your friend calling you a liar in 6 months when that doesn’t happen. Now you can argue that he should apply a larger degree of rigor when positing on social media because he is a famous person running a big company, and maybe so. But he might also argue that why should he be held to a higher standard on Twitter than any random joe posting garbage to thier feed for friends to read?