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Trust, respect, collaboration, mentorship, patience, sacrifice, etc. are services I am happy to perform for my in-office colleagues because they are real people

Trust, respect, collaboration, mentorship, patience, sacrifice, etc. are services I am happy to perform for my in-office colleagues because they are real people really in front of my tickling the empathy parts of my ape brain, and I identify with them as my people. You are a rectangle on a computer screen. The same expectations apply but the ape-brain emotional supports do not kick in; it is more difficult and less pleasant work. We don’t have to be best friends, but yes, showing up is part of the “teammate” package. You don’t get to withdraw that part and still demand all the same things from me.

thr0waway4473 5y ago
There are also many of us who are fully capable of providing those services and treating our coworkers like "real people" remotely. If you're working in an org that is forcing your to work in an environment that you despise, why not leave for one that better aligns with your values rather than treating your coworkers like subhumans?
- closeparen 5y ago
  That’s the plan! In order to do that though, there has to be some team which requires its members to show up (those who were remote during the pandemic, those who may wish to join later), which the parent feels is unfair. I think both our preferences are legitimate and people should be able to sort themselves into teams that suit their preferences. I understand people are distressed about commuting and the office. I’m also distressed about the prospect of spending the majority of my waking hours over the next 30 years on Zoom. If that’s the way things are shaping up I need to go be a farmer or something.
  - MaknMoreGtnLess 5y ago
    > If that’s the way things are shaping up I need to go be a farmer or something. Is this something you entertain as an actual possibility or shudder to think about?
    - closeparen 5y ago
      I knew I was meant to be a software engineer from about 9 years old until March 2020. I think I will code for the rest of my life. Hopefully I’ll find some way to collaborate in person with people about technical projects for the long haul. But I don’t know how many more videoconferences I can take. 5.5 hours of them today. Anything to make it stop.
  - Buttons840 5y ago
    Just to be clear, I don't think it's always unfair for companies to require employees to "show up". I only think it is unfair if the only reason they are doing so is to satisfy the personal social needs of employees, because they are putting the personal needs of some employees above the personal needs of other employees.
    - paulcole 5y ago
      > because they are putting the personal needs of some employees above the personal needs of other employees. If a company stays remote because you do not personally need social interaction at the office, what has just happened? Your personal needs have been put above the personal needs of other employees.
      - arubania2 5y ago
        I don’t think the parent was suggesting that companies stay remote _because_ the employees don’t need interaction. (IMO companies stay this way because it’s simply cheaper and the hiring pool is bigger, but that’s not important in this discussion) It just happens to benefit those whose prefer to stay at home.
        paulcole 5y ago
        > the hiring pool is bigger In the US, this is only a benefit to bigger businesses or businesses with a presence in multiple states already (or those willing to take on quite a bit of new administrative work). I work for a 15-person remote company based in a single state and the additional overhead required to understand taxation, labor laws, and other issues in even neighboring states is higher than you might think. We're putting it off and just hiring locally for now.
        midasuni 5y ago
        What do companies near the border do? If you are a small firm in NYC I can’t imagine it being unusual to employ people from NJ and Connecticut ad well as NY, and even further afield like PA. in Baltimore I can see you could have commuters from both virginias, Maryland, Delaware, Phillidelphoa, New Jersey and DC.
  - Lascaille 5y ago
    >people should be able to sort themselves into teams that suit their preferences. The teams are going to be companies, in my opinion. There are going to be 'remote' companies and 'in person' companies. That's the only way this type of self-sorting will work, people won't join a company not knowing for sure whether they're committing to an in-person or remote working experience.
    - jklein11 5y ago
      I disagree. I think this is going to be like other work life balance questions. Yes the tone is set from the top but each team is going to interact with each other in different ways. I think it will be difficult for an entire organization to make a hard and fast rule.
      - Lascaille 5y ago
        > I think it will be difficult for an entire organization to make a hard and fast rule. Thinking about it more, I guess you're right. There will always be sectors within organisations where it's considered that face-to-face meetings and working physically in the presence of other team members is necessary to make effective progress.
MaknMoreGtnLess 5y ago
> We don’t have to be best friends, but yes, showing up is part of the “teammate” package. You don’t get to withdraw that part and still demand all the same things from me. … but they arn't. The person who has meaningful and deep relationships outside work isn't demanding all the same things from you. Most work are in dense cities and cities are inherently expensive. For the commute to be meaningful, everyone in your team has to be within a short distance of these dense cities. The “teammate” package you propose is pretty expensive all things considered. You might not realize nor care about the expense but the teammates might. In the end, the company cares about productive output. Mercenary or not, companies that have the most productive output that makes the customers happy are going to win. My money are on companies that go remote, keep costs down and pass on those savings internally (employees) and externally (customers). My money is not on companies that are forced to hire people within driving distance of some arbitrary office.

thr0waway4473 5y ago

There are also many of us who are fully capable of providing those services and treating our coworkers like "real people" remotely. If you're working in an org that is forcing your to work in an environment that you despise, why not leave for one that better aligns with your values rather than treating your coworkers like subhumans?

closeparen 5y ago
That’s the plan! In order to do that though, there has to be some team which requires its members to show up (those who were remote during the pandemic, those who may wish to join later), which the parent feels is unfair. I think both our preferences are legitimate and people should be able to sort themselves into teams that suit their preferences. I understand people are distressed about commuting and the office. I’m also distressed about the prospect of spending the majority of my waking hours over the next 30 years on Zoom. If that’s the way things are shaping up I need to go be a farmer or something.
- MaknMoreGtnLess 5y ago
  > If that’s the way things are shaping up I need to go be a farmer or something. Is this something you entertain as an actual possibility or shudder to think about?
  - closeparen 5y ago
    I knew I was meant to be a software engineer from about 9 years old until March 2020. I think I will code for the rest of my life. Hopefully I’ll find some way to collaborate in person with people about technical projects for the long haul. But I don’t know how many more videoconferences I can take. 5.5 hours of them today. Anything to make it stop.
- Buttons840 5y ago
  Just to be clear, I don't think it's always unfair for companies to require employees to "show up". I only think it is unfair if the only reason they are doing so is to satisfy the personal social needs of employees, because they are putting the personal needs of some employees above the personal needs of other employees.
  - paulcole 5y ago
    > because they are putting the personal needs of some employees above the personal needs of other employees. If a company stays remote because you do not personally need social interaction at the office, what has just happened? Your personal needs have been put above the personal needs of other employees.
    - arubania2 5y ago
      I don’t think the parent was suggesting that companies stay remote _because_ the employees don’t need interaction. (IMO companies stay this way because it’s simply cheaper and the hiring pool is bigger, but that’s not important in this discussion) It just happens to benefit those whose prefer to stay at home.
      - paulcole 5y ago
        > the hiring pool is bigger In the US, this is only a benefit to bigger businesses or businesses with a presence in multiple states already (or those willing to take on quite a bit of new administrative work). I work for a 15-person remote company based in a single state and the additional overhead required to understand taxation, labor laws, and other issues in even neighboring states is higher than you might think. We're putting it off and just hiring locally for now.
        midasuni 5y ago
        What do companies near the border do? If you are a small firm in NYC I can’t imagine it being unusual to employ people from NJ and Connecticut ad well as NY, and even further afield like PA. in Baltimore I can see you could have commuters from both virginias, Maryland, Delaware, Phillidelphoa, New Jersey and DC.
- Lascaille 5y ago
  >people should be able to sort themselves into teams that suit their preferences. The teams are going to be companies, in my opinion. There are going to be 'remote' companies and 'in person' companies. That's the only way this type of self-sorting will work, people won't join a company not knowing for sure whether they're committing to an in-person or remote working experience.
  - jklein11 5y ago
    I disagree. I think this is going to be like other work life balance questions. Yes the tone is set from the top but each team is going to interact with each other in different ways. I think it will be difficult for an entire organization to make a hard and fast rule.
    - Lascaille 5y ago
      > I think it will be difficult for an entire organization to make a hard and fast rule. Thinking about it more, I guess you're right. There will always be sectors within organisations where it's considered that face-to-face meetings and working physically in the presence of other team members is necessary to make effective progress.

MaknMoreGtnLess 5y ago

> We don’t have to be best friends, but yes, showing up is part of the “teammate” package. You don’t get to withdraw that part and still demand all the same things from me. … but they arn't. The person who has meaningful and deep relationships outside work isn't demanding all the same things from you. Most work are in dense cities and cities are inherently expensive. For the commute to be meaningful, everyone in your team has to be within a short distance of these dense cities. The “teammate” package you propose is pretty expensive all things considered. You might not realize nor care about the expense but the teammates might. In the end, the company cares about productive output. Mercenary or not, companies that have the most productive output that makes the customers happy are going to win. My money are on companies that go remote, keep costs down and pass on those savings internally (employees) and externally (customers). My money is not on companies that are forced to hire people within driving distance of some arbitrary office.