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> I'm tired of all the talk about "You should not rely on office for socializing" I've said similar things, but it's very important to note I'm saying that OTH

> I'm tired of all the talk about "You should not rely on office for socializing" I've said similar things, but it's very important to note I'm saying that OTHERS should not force ME into the office to fulfill THEIR social needs. I'm happy working from home, and if push comes to shove, I'm saying that people's social needs should not be a consideration when deciding whether we all work from an office or from home. I think it's great for people to fulfill their social needs at work, but I have a problem if their social needs become the reason I'm force to set aside my own needs and go to the office.

closeparen 5y ago
A team is a condition of mutual obligation. Teams are not the only way of organizing the economy: we have already seen the rise of gig work in the service sector, and I expect that more mercenary models of remote work and contracting have a bright future on the white-collar side of things. But to the extent that I have the obligations of a teammate to you, I expect you to share in the obligations of a teammate to me.
- Buttons840 5y ago
  Of course, but is fulfilling your social needs a requirement for being a good teammate? And does the team have any responsibility to me to allow me to work in a comfortable environment (from home)?
  - closeparen 5y ago
    Trust, respect, collaboration, mentorship, patience, sacrifice, etc. are services I am happy to perform for my in-office colleagues because they are real people really in front of my tickling the empathy parts of my ape brain, and I identify with them as my people. You are a rectangle on a computer screen. The same expectations apply but the ape-brain emotional supports do not kick in; it is more difficult and less pleasant work. We don’t have to be best friends, but yes, showing up is part of the “teammate” package. You don’t get to withdraw that part and still demand all the same things from me.
    - thr0waway4473 5y ago
      There are also many of us who are fully capable of providing those services and treating our coworkers like "real people" remotely. If you're working in an org that is forcing your to work in an environment that you despise, why not leave for one that better aligns with your values rather than treating your coworkers like subhumans?
      - closeparen 5y ago
        That’s the plan! In order to do that though, there has to be some team which requires its members to show up (those who were remote during the pandemic, those who may wish to join later), which the parent feels is unfair. I think both our preferences are legitimate and people should be able to sort themselves into teams that suit their preferences. I understand people are distressed about commuting and the office. I’m also distressed about the prospect of spending the majority of my waking hours over the next 30 years on Zoom. If that’s the way things are shaping up I need to go be a farmer or something.
        MaknMoreGtnLess 5y ago
        > If that’s the way things are shaping up I need to go be a farmer or something. Is this something you entertain as an actual possibility or shudder to think about?
        closeparen 5y ago
        I knew I was meant to be a software engineer from about 9 years old until March 2020. I think I will code for the rest of my life. Hopefully I’ll find some way to collaborate in person with people about technical projects for the long haul. But I don’t know how many more videoconferences I can take. 5.5 hours of them today. Anything to make it stop.
        Buttons840 5y ago
        Just to be clear, I don't think it's always unfair for companies to require employees to "show up". I only think it is unfair if the only reason they are doing so is to satisfy the personal social needs of employees, because they are putting the personal needs of some employees above the personal needs of other employees.

closeparen 5y ago

A team is a condition of mutual obligation. Teams are not the only way of organizing the economy: we have already seen the rise of gig work in the service sector, and I expect that more mercenary models of remote work and contracting have a bright future on the white-collar side of things. But to the extent that I have the obligations of a teammate to you, I expect you to share in the obligations of a teammate to me.

Buttons840 5y ago
Of course, but is fulfilling your social needs a requirement for being a good teammate? And does the team have any responsibility to me to allow me to work in a comfortable environment (from home)?
- closeparen 5y ago
  Trust, respect, collaboration, mentorship, patience, sacrifice, etc. are services I am happy to perform for my in-office colleagues because they are real people really in front of my tickling the empathy parts of my ape brain, and I identify with them as my people. You are a rectangle on a computer screen. The same expectations apply but the ape-brain emotional supports do not kick in; it is more difficult and less pleasant work. We don’t have to be best friends, but yes, showing up is part of the “teammate” package. You don’t get to withdraw that part and still demand all the same things from me.
  - thr0waway4473 5y ago
    There are also many of us who are fully capable of providing those services and treating our coworkers like "real people" remotely. If you're working in an org that is forcing your to work in an environment that you despise, why not leave for one that better aligns with your values rather than treating your coworkers like subhumans?
    - closeparen 5y ago
      That’s the plan! In order to do that though, there has to be some team which requires its members to show up (those who were remote during the pandemic, those who may wish to join later), which the parent feels is unfair. I think both our preferences are legitimate and people should be able to sort themselves into teams that suit their preferences. I understand people are distressed about commuting and the office. I’m also distressed about the prospect of spending the majority of my waking hours over the next 30 years on Zoom. If that’s the way things are shaping up I need to go be a farmer or something.
      - MaknMoreGtnLess 5y ago
        > If that’s the way things are shaping up I need to go be a farmer or something. Is this something you entertain as an actual possibility or shudder to think about?
        closeparen 5y ago
        I knew I was meant to be a software engineer from about 9 years old until March 2020. I think I will code for the rest of my life. Hopefully I’ll find some way to collaborate in person with people about technical projects for the long haul. But I don’t know how many more videoconferences I can take. 5.5 hours of them today. Anything to make it stop.
      - Buttons840 5y ago
        Just to be clear, I don't think it's always unfair for companies to require employees to "show up". I only think it is unfair if the only reason they are doing so is to satisfy the personal social needs of employees, because they are putting the personal needs of some employees above the personal needs of other employees.