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I like having my apartment heated though. Also, I enjoy hot showers. And electricity. I live in Berlin so all of that is basically at least partially dependent

I like having my apartment heated though. Also, I enjoy hot showers. And electricity. I live in Berlin so all of that is basically at least partially dependent on Russian gas. It's winter here; so I'd prefer that not to happen. The EU is not prepared for a gas shutdown. Reserves are already low and a gas shutdown would be problematic. And it is still winter. Maybe in a few years it would be possible for the EU to do this without taking a huge hit on its power infrastructure and economy. But right now, it simply can't. Russia knows this and is clearly not taking this very serious. Mutually assured economic destruction is ultimately not going to be a serious option that politicians will entertain for very long.

nickpp 5y ago
Imported LNG, coal, nuclear. No time to think about climate when Hitler is raising. Starve Putin, then switch to renewables.
- nathanaldensr 5y ago
  Or, you know, all of that could've been done before this crisis began to ensure energy independence.
TrapLord_Rhodo 5y ago
This is a ridiculous sentiment and a bold faced lie. Yes - It might raise prices in the short term, but energy independence is a national asset anyways. Just by cutting access off to russia will not completely cripple a nation as there is plenty of reserves nation wide. Additionally, mass sanctions on russian energy would bring down the accepted collusion in OPEC. Dependance and the ability to rapidly make trade deals are two seperate things. Just because i buy 1/3 of my widget from x, doesn't mean i can't switch to buying 1/3 of my widget from y should i need to. Not everyone in OPEC loves russia.
- unfocussed_mike 5y ago
  Raise prices? It'll do more than that. It depends how complex the German energy market is (I don't know at all) but it's important to understand that most non-renewable energy has to be purchased considerably in advance, with the proceeds of prior sales to customers. And compensatory production has to be scheduled considerably in advance too. It is possible for gas prices to rise so quickly that the system bankrupts. It's happening (in a stupidly overcomplex energy market) in the UK, for reasons that have nothing to do with regional instability. I am no energy market scholar but it seems to me that one result of a conflict in the Ukraine could be the temporary collapse of regional energy markets as countries that produce oil or natural gas energy begin to use protectionism (renationalisation, export bans, domestic-only quotas, whatever works) to try to survive what happens. Another is the return of dangerous energy extraction methods like fracking.
  - TrapLord_Rhodo 5y ago
    what you are discussing is in normal times when all the politician are at eachothers throats. Everyones got a hidden agenda. The powers and solidarity you get in the face of an enemy ensures quick action, especially where no one can point to the nord stream 2 as an option. Also, after some digging i can't seem to find a reliable figure to quote the % of imported energy from russia? the nord was supposed to provide 30% more natural gas than currently utilized, but thats a surplus not a dependency since it was never even turned on. Energy markets have been moving be alot more decentralized in the recent years, not due to any overt action to do so but because energy usage and distribution is much more akin to high frequency trading among grids.
mlindner 5y ago
Well Germany also got rid of it's perfectly well working Nuclear power stations just so they could rely on Russia even more.

nickpp 5y ago

Imported LNG, coal, nuclear. No time to think about climate when Hitler is raising. Starve Putin, then switch to renewables.

nathanaldensr 5y ago
Or, you know, all of that could've been done before this crisis began to ensure energy independence.

TrapLord_Rhodo 5y ago

This is a ridiculous sentiment and a bold faced lie. Yes - It might raise prices in the short term, but energy independence is a national asset anyways. Just by cutting access off to russia will not completely cripple a nation as there is plenty of reserves nation wide. Additionally, mass sanctions on russian energy would bring down the accepted collusion in OPEC. Dependance and the ability to rapidly make trade deals are two seperate things. Just because i buy 1/3 of my widget from x, doesn't mean i can't switch to buying 1/3 of my widget from y should i need to. Not everyone in OPEC loves russia.

unfocussed_mike 5y ago
Raise prices? It'll do more than that. It depends how complex the German energy market is (I don't know at all) but it's important to understand that most non-renewable energy has to be purchased considerably in advance, with the proceeds of prior sales to customers. And compensatory production has to be scheduled considerably in advance too. It is possible for gas prices to rise so quickly that the system bankrupts. It's happening (in a stupidly overcomplex energy market) in the UK, for reasons that have nothing to do with regional instability. I am no energy market scholar but it seems to me that one result of a conflict in the Ukraine could be the temporary collapse of regional energy markets as countries that produce oil or natural gas energy begin to use protectionism (renationalisation, export bans, domestic-only quotas, whatever works) to try to survive what happens. Another is the return of dangerous energy extraction methods like fracking.
- TrapLord_Rhodo 5y ago
  what you are discussing is in normal times when all the politician are at eachothers throats. Everyones got a hidden agenda. The powers and solidarity you get in the face of an enemy ensures quick action, especially where no one can point to the nord stream 2 as an option. Also, after some digging i can't seem to find a reliable figure to quote the % of imported energy from russia? the nord was supposed to provide 30% more natural gas than currently utilized, but thats a surplus not a dependency since it was never even turned on. Energy markets have been moving be alot more decentralized in the recent years, not due to any overt action to do so but because energy usage and distribution is much more akin to high frequency trading among grids.

mlindner 5y ago

Well Germany also got rid of it's perfectly well working Nuclear power stations just so they could rely on Russia even more.