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> Did someone say otherwise? I will say otherwise. We do not need crypto.

invalidname 5y ago
+1. We "might" need what crypto was supposed to do (and even then arguably not). But we don't need what it is: a bloated worthless commodities ponzi scheme. Furthermore, its been shown governments can track all transactions. Without warrants (since it isn't money). Even for privacy focused funds. I doubt it would be hard for them to freeze account withdrawal and seriously hurt people trying to circumvent the law with crypto.
jqpabc123 5y ago
The only reason crypto exists is because others needs don't match yours. The desire and *idea* behind crypto is reasonable. It's just that the implementation falls way short of the idea.
- arcticbull 5y ago
  The whole idea behind a public ledger of transactions and balances when you're trying to push back against a totalitarian government is nonsense. If you're putting criminal or fringe transactions on the ledger, then handing the ledger to the government saying "I bet you can't figure this out!" You're not making transactions, you're making prosecution futures. If someone tried to use Bitcoin to evade the PRC I'd say they had a death wish. Remember, you're not leveraging crypto promises against current deanonymization software, you're using it against all future deanonymization software. That's such a bad idea I can't even. The only reason it's at all worked in Western democracies is because the anarchocapitalists are "pushing back" against a government that either tolerates or supports them. Worse, when they use the technology against Western democracies their actions are anti-Democratic. They're hoping the minority can overturn the lawful actions of the majority instead of using the courts or electoral processes. [edit] The folks who truly advocate crypto as a tool to push back against a totalitarian government are the kind of people who read 75% of 1984, closed the book, and assume Winston went home to have a sip of Victory Gin and lived happily ever after.
  - sweetbitter 5y ago
    So your argument is that the protestors should just learn about the constraints of chains like Monero and use those?
    - arcticbull 5y ago
      I think even in that situation it's not clear that something like Monero will keep you safe in perpetuity - or even today - against a well capitalized state actor. The fact folks haven't gotten banged up for it yet isn't an indication it's safe - far from it. A honeypot behaves the same way until it does not.
- danaris 5y ago
  The biggest mismatch in "needs" here is the apparent "need" of some people to be able to conduct substantial financial dealings without any government being able to either see what's going on or step in if it's blatantly illegal, while most people consider that to be detrimental to the overall functioning of a healthy society. If you don't want to be part of our modern society, then please go find a way to do so away from all of us who do. Until and unless you separate yourselves from us entirely—including no longer taking advantage of our government-supported infrastructure, our government-supported education, our government-supported enforcement of property rights, and our government-supported military—you don't get to claim a right to evade either our laws and regulations around economic activity, or our taxes.
  - sweetbitter 5y ago
    If you wish for people to stop seeking the protection of their civil liberties, perhaps then you should stop attempting to undermine those civil liberties through the likes of secret courts and secret laws, warrantless mass surveillance, warrantless seizure of property, proprietary software, and other various techniques that western oligarchs have pushed in the interest of preventing so-called "terrorism".
  - jqpabc123 5y ago
    * ... apparent "need" of some people to be able to conduct substantial financial dealings without any government being able to either see what's going on ...* And crypto mostly fails in this regard. Blockchain maintains a permanent record of everything that goes on for anyone to see.
    - danaris 5y ago
      Well, right. As soon as governments around the world manage to pull their heads out of their collective asses (which some are already doing) and genuinely try to understand cryptocurrencies, they start regulating them like any other asset. The "Wild West" of crypto is a historical aberration that will absolutely not last.
      - 5y ago
koonsolo 5y ago
Just because you don't, doesn't mean someone else doesn't. Or are you going to speak for everyone on this earth?
- arcticbull 5y ago
  This is not a rebuttal.

+1. We "might" need what crypto was supposed to do (and even then arguably not). But we don't need what it is: a bloated worthless commodities ponzi scheme. Furthermore, its been shown governments can track all transactions. Without warrants (since it isn't money). Even for privacy focused funds. I doubt it would be hard for them to freeze account withdrawal and seriously hurt people trying to circumvent the law with crypto.

jqpabc123 5y ago

The only reason crypto exists is because others needs don't match yours. The desire and *idea* behind crypto is reasonable. It's just that the implementation falls way short of the idea.

arcticbull 5y ago
The whole idea behind a public ledger of transactions and balances when you're trying to push back against a totalitarian government is nonsense. If you're putting criminal or fringe transactions on the ledger, then handing the ledger to the government saying "I bet you can't figure this out!" You're not making transactions, you're making prosecution futures. If someone tried to use Bitcoin to evade the PRC I'd say they had a death wish. Remember, you're not leveraging crypto promises against current deanonymization software, you're using it against all future deanonymization software. That's such a bad idea I can't even. The only reason it's at all worked in Western democracies is because the anarchocapitalists are "pushing back" against a government that either tolerates or supports them. Worse, when they use the technology against Western democracies their actions are anti-Democratic. They're hoping the minority can overturn the lawful actions of the majority instead of using the courts or electoral processes. [edit] The folks who truly advocate crypto as a tool to push back against a totalitarian government are the kind of people who read 75% of 1984, closed the book, and assume Winston went home to have a sip of Victory Gin and lived happily ever after.
- sweetbitter 5y ago
  So your argument is that the protestors should just learn about the constraints of chains like Monero and use those?
  - arcticbull 5y ago
    I think even in that situation it's not clear that something like Monero will keep you safe in perpetuity - or even today - against a well capitalized state actor. The fact folks haven't gotten banged up for it yet isn't an indication it's safe - far from it. A honeypot behaves the same way until it does not.
danaris 5y ago
The biggest mismatch in "needs" here is the apparent "need" of some people to be able to conduct substantial financial dealings without any government being able to either see what's going on or step in if it's blatantly illegal, while most people consider that to be detrimental to the overall functioning of a healthy society. If you don't want to be part of our modern society, then please go find a way to do so away from all of us who do. Until and unless you separate yourselves from us entirely—including no longer taking advantage of our government-supported infrastructure, our government-supported education, our government-supported enforcement of property rights, and our government-supported military—you don't get to claim a right to evade either our laws and regulations around economic activity, or our taxes.
- sweetbitter 5y ago
  If you wish for people to stop seeking the protection of their civil liberties, perhaps then you should stop attempting to undermine those civil liberties through the likes of secret courts and secret laws, warrantless mass surveillance, warrantless seizure of property, proprietary software, and other various techniques that western oligarchs have pushed in the interest of preventing so-called "terrorism".
- jqpabc123 5y ago
  * ... apparent "need" of some people to be able to conduct substantial financial dealings without any government being able to either see what's going on ...* And crypto mostly fails in this regard. Blockchain maintains a permanent record of everything that goes on for anyone to see.
  - danaris 5y ago
    Well, right. As soon as governments around the world manage to pull their heads out of their collective asses (which some are already doing) and genuinely try to understand cryptocurrencies, they start regulating them like any other asset. The "Wild West" of crypto is a historical aberration that will absolutely not last.
    - 5y ago

koonsolo 5y ago

Just because you don't, doesn't mean someone else doesn't. Or are you going to speak for everyone on this earth?

arcticbull 5y ago
This is not a rebuttal.