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This is so similar to the Anna Sorokin scam (now famous via Netflix). I think the Insta culture has made people so hungry for the image of success that they'll

This is so similar to the Anna Sorokin scam (now famous via Netflix). I think the Insta culture has made people so hungry for the image of success that they'll do anything to achieve it. Taking that a step further, I do wonder if crimes like this will get public sentiment behind removing anonymity from the Internet. There's plenty of reasons to keep people's privacy. But society will only tolerate so much criminal behavior before handing over their freedom for order.

blowski 5y ago
Such scams have always been true for whatever reason. Ancient Rome had specific laws around pretending to be other people, suggesting it was a big problem 2000 years ago. If this is used to justify removing anonymity from the internet, I doubt it will be the real motivation for those pushing it.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
gkoberger 5y ago
The Tinder Swindler on Netflix is another example of this. Theranos isn't far off, either, although it was more "legitimate". I disagree with your last paragraph, though. These weren't "anonymous" people, they were liars (often using their real identities and definitely using their real faces). There have been con artists for decades. These people aren't trying to steal money and sneak off into the darkness. They're trying to brute force their way into their version of success, where their actual real identities are attached.
- lazide 5y ago
  Fake it until you make it is incredibly toxic for everyone - it gets people in over their heads in situations they have no experience for, it convinces folks to scam everyone around them, and it causes mental health issues for everyone as they can’t figure out if they should be more or less delusional than others. It’s about time for some actual ‘experience and responsibility matter’ to come back - but it will have to get worse before it gets better, and hopefully we don’t get stuck in the ‘scam zone’
ethbr0 5y ago
> so hungry for the image of success that they'll do anything to achieve it I'd flip that sideways a bit and say that it's normalized the achievement of success (that is, the end rewards) to consumers / viewers, while omitting the effort to get there, to such a degree that no one thinks to look for or ask "How?" Everything in the BBC article was pretty trivially verifiable. But most people didn't. That feels wrong.
- nerdawson 5y ago
  > Everything in the BBC article was pretty trivially verifiable. But most people didn't. That feels wrong. 90k Instagram followers is all the verification most people need.
- bunana 5y ago
  > Everything in the BBC article was pretty trivially verifiable. But most people didn't. That feels wrong. I'm shocked that apparently no one looked up the supposed Madbird office (edit: except for Gemma, who had been working there already for two weeks!). Has covid really made people so comfortable working at home to the point where they don't care to know where their employer's physical office is? Especially for the people who were "hired" abroad. In my mind, I would be extra careful to audit a potential employer if they're based in a different country than where I live.
tmnvix 5y ago
God forbid the public see the anonymous nature of business entities as the problem here - at least when seeking justice. > The tribunal order was made against the company, not against Ali Ayad as an individual. So if Madbird was insolvent, like Ali said, there was no way the tribunal could force it to pay any of the owed wages.
- autoexec 5y ago
  Exactly, corporations keep telling us they are people, but somehow they never face the kinds of consequences that actual people do. That said, I'd be surprised if there wasn't something Ali Ayad could be charged with directly.
- bsder 5y ago
  That doesn't fly in California. Back wages are one of the few things that officers of a company can be found personally liable for.
  - Lascaille 5y ago
    Including in the case of a Delaware corporation with offices in California?
    - bsder 5y ago
      Yes. Offices in California are governed by California labor law--otherwise companies could dodge things like the "non-competes are unenforceable" in California labor law. Even if you are a Delaware corporation for stock purposes, there is some paperwork that grants you reciprocity in California and allows you to operate there. As part of that, you are subject to certain California laws.
shakna 5y ago
> But society will only tolerate so much criminal behavior before handing over their freedom for order. There's already movement to remove this [0], whether or not it's approved by the public, and whether or not it's deemed to actually be helpful at all by the experts in the field. [0] https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/nov/28/coalition-bill-would-force-social-media-companies-to-reveal-identities-of-online-bullies https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/nov/28/coali...
edmcnulty101 5y ago
To be blunt to people who were swindled were either dumb or naieve. they learned a valuable lesson. I'm not sure if we need to put safety guards on every possible bad thing that can happen in the world
- Lascaille 5y ago
  >I'm not sure if we need to put safety guards on every possible bad thing that can happen in the world Uh, it's literally the job of government to protect people from themselves.

blowski 5y ago

Such scams have always been true for whatever reason. Ancient Rome had specific laws around pretending to be other people, suggesting it was a big problem 2000 years ago. If this is used to justify removing anonymity from the internet, I doubt it will be the real motivation for those pushing it.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

gkoberger 5y ago

The Tinder Swindler on Netflix is another example of this. Theranos isn't far off, either, although it was more "legitimate". I disagree with your last paragraph, though. These weren't "anonymous" people, they were liars (often using their real identities and definitely using their real faces). There have been con artists for decades. These people aren't trying to steal money and sneak off into the darkness. They're trying to brute force their way into their version of success, where their actual real identities are attached.

lazide 5y ago
Fake it until you make it is incredibly toxic for everyone - it gets people in over their heads in situations they have no experience for, it convinces folks to scam everyone around them, and it causes mental health issues for everyone as they can’t figure out if they should be more or less delusional than others. It’s about time for some actual ‘experience and responsibility matter’ to come back - but it will have to get worse before it gets better, and hopefully we don’t get stuck in the ‘scam zone’

ethbr0 5y ago

> so hungry for the image of success that they'll do anything to achieve it I'd flip that sideways a bit and say that it's normalized the achievement of success (that is, the end rewards) to consumers / viewers, while omitting the effort to get there, to such a degree that no one thinks to look for or ask "How?" Everything in the BBC article was pretty trivially verifiable. But most people didn't. That feels wrong.

nerdawson 5y ago
> Everything in the BBC article was pretty trivially verifiable. But most people didn't. That feels wrong. 90k Instagram followers is all the verification most people need.
bunana 5y ago
> Everything in the BBC article was pretty trivially verifiable. But most people didn't. That feels wrong. I'm shocked that apparently no one looked up the supposed Madbird office (edit: except for Gemma, who had been working there already for two weeks!). Has covid really made people so comfortable working at home to the point where they don't care to know where their employer's physical office is? Especially for the people who were "hired" abroad. In my mind, I would be extra careful to audit a potential employer if they're based in a different country than where I live.

tmnvix 5y ago

God forbid the public see the anonymous nature of business entities as the problem here - at least when seeking justice. > The tribunal order was made against the company, not against Ali Ayad as an individual. So if Madbird was insolvent, like Ali said, there was no way the tribunal could force it to pay any of the owed wages.

autoexec 5y ago
Exactly, corporations keep telling us they are people, but somehow they never face the kinds of consequences that actual people do. That said, I'd be surprised if there wasn't something Ali Ayad could be charged with directly.
bsder 5y ago
That doesn't fly in California. Back wages are one of the few things that officers of a company can be found personally liable for.
- Lascaille 5y ago
  Including in the case of a Delaware corporation with offices in California?
  - bsder 5y ago
    Yes. Offices in California are governed by California labor law--otherwise companies could dodge things like the "non-competes are unenforceable" in California labor law. Even if you are a Delaware corporation for stock purposes, there is some paperwork that grants you reciprocity in California and allows you to operate there. As part of that, you are subject to certain California laws.

shakna 5y ago

> But society will only tolerate so much criminal behavior before handing over their freedom for order. There's already movement to remove this [0], whether or not it's approved by the public, and whether or not it's deemed to actually be helpful at all by the experts in the field. [0] https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/nov/28/coalition-bill-would-force-social-media-companies-to-reveal-identities-of-online-bullies https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/nov/28/coali...

edmcnulty101 5y ago

To be blunt to people who were swindled were either dumb or naieve. they learned a valuable lesson. I'm not sure if we need to put safety guards on every possible bad thing that can happen in the world

Lascaille 5y ago
>I'm not sure if we need to put safety guards on every possible bad thing that can happen in the world Uh, it's literally the job of government to protect people from themselves.