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I clicked on this thread because I knew exactly what I wanted to comment about, and was surprised to see that Chris mentioned exactly it in his message: >After
by rockbruno 5y ago
I clicked on this thread because I knew exactly what I wanted to comment about, and was surprised to see that Chris mentioned exactly it in his message:
>After several discussions generating more heat than light, when my formal proposal review comments and concerns were ignored by the unilateral accepts, and the general challenges with transparency working with core team, I decided that my effort was triggering the same friction with the same people, and thus I was just wasting my time.
I stopped paying attention to Swift for this exact reason. I have actually submitted and implemented a feature in Swift and I think it was one of my most frustrating experiences with open-source projects. It seems that almost every thread in this forum devolves into people fighting over the most irrelevant details, and my proposal specifically took months to be submitted into review because a couple of users simply refused to back down from how they personally wanted it to work, ignoring the actual problem the feature aimed to solve. After a long time deflecting the comments, the feature was accepted the way I originally intended and I never entered the forum again.
Example aside, it doesn't take a proposal to see that almost every thread in the forum looks like this. Open sourcing Swift has benefits, but I think when it comes to the actual progress of the project, this particular democratic process was a mistake.
- JoelJacobson 5y agoIt would be interesting to read the thread if you could please share a link to it?
- 37D8E3DF003E 5y agohttps://forums.swift.org/t/support-negative-availability-literals/ https://forums.swift.org/t/support-negative-availability-lit... https://forums.swift.org/t/se-0290-unavailability-condition/ https://forums.swift.org/t/se-0290-unavailability-condition/ https://forums.swift.org/t/se-290-second-review-unavailability-condition/ https://forums.swift.org/t/se-290-second-review-unavailabili...
- bombcar 5y agoHas there been an actively developed open-source language both without a "benevolent dictator" AND without being bikeshredded to death by democracy? (I wouldn't count C as actively developing, even though it is moving glacially slow, I'm thinking of things like Python, etc. Or other languages that aren't "done.")
- worik 5y agoRust
- YorickPeterse 5y agoI wouldn't consider Rust to fall in this category to be honest, as there are plenty of issues/RFCs where people were bike shedding for months or even years.
- tinco 5y agoTo be honest Rust has some of the most beautifully painted bikesheds I've seen.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- sinistersnare 5y agoI think Rust does a _ton_ of bikeshedding. Here is one example[0] showing how much of a discussion is required for a relatively simple QoL feature. [0]: https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/issues/62358 https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/issues/62358
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- faitswulff 5y agoLooks like that one devolved a bit into a flamewar. I'm not sure it's representative of the average feature proposal.
- worik 5y agoPerhaps it was a culture mismatch? Mozilla has a long tradition of "open source" that Apple does not. So Mozilla were able to cultivate a community around Rust, where Apple laid down a lot of astroturf...