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> I was able to get leadership to eventually discuss the situation with me last Fall, but after avoiding dealing with it, they made excuses, and made it clear t

> I was able to get leadership to eventually discuss the situation with me last Fall, but after avoiding dealing with it, they made excuses, and made it clear they weren't planning to do anything about it. As such, I decided not to return. They reassure me they "want to make sure things are better for others in the future based on what we talked about" though. This puts a bullet in my hopes for Swift. Why on earth would Apple not support this obvious A-Team player?

voidfunc 5y ago
> This puts a bullet in my hopes for Swift. Why on earth would Apple not support this obvious A-Team player? There's two sides to every story?
- bob1029 5y ago
  I would really like to hear what this yelling was about. Perspective is a hell of a thing. There are some exceptionally capable people who simply cannot work together on the same idea/problem in my experience. This doesn't necessarily mean that one or the other is inherently bad.
  - Apocryphon 5y ago
    Lattner’s post linked to an example of a heated discussion: https://forums.swift.org/t/if-let-shorthand/54230/188 https://forums.swift.org/t/if-let-shorthand/54230/188
    - bob1029 5y ago
      I'd like to take a HN poll on whether or not this is even "heated". Seems like extremely healthy debate upon my first scan through.
      - _ea1k 5y ago
        That doesn't seem bad at all from my cursory glance at it.
      - sprkwd 5y ago
        If every forum conversation i had was like this i’d soon stop being part of it.
        manmal 5y ago
        This is not a normal forum conversation though. It influences binaries on billions of devices. Lattner wanted to push his own opinion and got (IMO) gently rejected. Fair enough.
        zozbot234 5y ago
        Lattner's point was that high-level design considerations should be thoroughly discussed well before even finalizing the design, never mind the bikeshedding on syntax that takes up much of the thread. Swift's design discussions seem severely dysfunctional compared to how other languages do these things, e.g. Python's Enhancement Proposals, Java's Community processes or Rust's RFC's.
        manmal 5y ago
        Well if the topic is a minor syntax sugar (if let), then you need to talk syntax. I don’t see any bikeshedding here.
      - ModernMech 5y ago
        Healthy? The linked post reads as very snide. Ben starts with claims that Chris isn't viewing his comments in context as being opinion. Rather than move on at that point, he turns around and decides to nitpick one of Chris' statements, characterizes it as hyperbolic and extreme (The extremely hyperbolic phrase in question was "betray a lot of expectations and introduce a lot of bugs." Wow, such extreme hyperbole). Ben then goes on to call another one of Chris' posts as representative of a part of a broader trend of "performative misunderstanding", basically calling Chris and others disingenuous. He then dismisses Chris' concerns out of hand as "a possible but frankly implausible misinterpretation", and says that his behavior is a "real problem" that worsens the goodness of other proposals. I'm not saying that either party here is in the right, or that the discussion as a whole is in Chris' favor, but I would say this thread is definitely not an example of healthy debate. You don't call your interlocutor disingenuous in healthy debate hyperbolically nitpick their posts as hyperbolic. That's not debate, it's squabbling.
ironmagma 5y ago
I don’t have any hope for the incumbent OS players. They clearly can’t get their priorities straight, and it’s sad that even within these OS vendors the native application development platforms are rotting in favor of cloud and web investments. Think about it, .NET is being sunsetted in favor of .NET Core, but the latter still doesn’t have desktop support and shows no signs of it. SwiftUI is a total letdown from what I’ve heard. It is ripe for disruption, that’s why I’ve been studying OSDev ceaselessly of late and hope I can find some more OS-minded people to collaborate with.
- anonymouse008 5y ago
  [Edit: I might be the worst developer on the planet, so take it all with a grain of fine salt] Yup, hot take: SwiftUI is hot garbage. Declarative rendering is the worst rendering: it's code written that doesn't have to be written. The beautiful thing about UIKit, NSLayout, and Storyboards, is that when used effectively, not much UI code has to be written, and when it does, it matters. Now everything has to be written to hells end. And not only do I need a mental diagram of my UI in rendered state, I need it in code state as well. If someone could enlighten me, I would gladly take the lesson. Edit: I'm very happy I posted this to learn. I used UITextViews extensively in my only app development, and was extremely frustrated with SwiftUIs readiness on that front. That said, I still like that my code can reflect the 'flow of thought' rather than the strictness of the UI when developing. I guess a lot of the property wrappers got to me too And all the improvements given to declarative rendering could be embodied in updates to Storyboards and the like.
  - ironmagma 5y ago
    I think declarative rendering has definite value. When you aren’t using it, you end up having to track your own dirty flags, and often that means you will neglect to update them properly, leading to inconsistent UI. CPUs are fast now, there is no reason to not be doing a few extra tree comparisons if it eliminates bugs and speeds up the development process. The criticisms I’ve heard of SwiftUI come from a guy who absolutely loved React. I think the problems are unrelated to the overall idea of declarative rendering being flawed.
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GeekyBear 5y ago
I'm pretty sure that Rust didn't fall apart when it's creator, Graydon Hoare, left Mozilla to work on Swift at Apple.
- b3morales 5y ago
  It's less this one person's (Chris) presence or absence and more the sanctioning (implicit or not) of shitty behavior from some other person or persons.
  - GeekyBear 5y ago
    Yep. I'm not a fan of people who think yelling is a normal part of debate. I think this comes down to Chris being a very busy person who has better things to do with his time than argue about the direction of a project he no longer controls.
- snek_case 5y ago
  My understanding is Swift doesn't have the same level of openness and community involvement as Rust. Apple has a lot more control over the language.
  - GeekyBear 5y ago
    Isn't that what normally happens when the language has important in-house use cases? >Go has community contributions but it is not a community project. It is Google's project. This is an unarguable thing, whether you consider it to be good or bad, and it has effects that we need to accept. For example, if you want some significant thing to be accepted into Go, working to build consensus in the community is far less important than persuading the Go core team. https://utcc.utoronto.ca/~cks/space/blog/programming/GoIsGooglesLanguage https://utcc.utoronto.ca/~cks/space/blog/programming/GoIsGoo...
    - snek_case 5y ago
      I understand why Apple has a vested interest in maintaining control over the language. What I'm saying is that this puts Swift at a disadvantage in terms of broad adoption and the odds of the language surviving its creator leaving when compared to a language like Rust that has real community involvement and is perceived by everyone as more neutral.
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voidfunc 5y ago

> This puts a bullet in my hopes for Swift. Why on earth would Apple not support this obvious A-Team player? There's two sides to every story?

bob1029 5y ago
I would really like to hear what this yelling was about. Perspective is a hell of a thing. There are some exceptionally capable people who simply cannot work together on the same idea/problem in my experience. This doesn't necessarily mean that one or the other is inherently bad.
- Apocryphon 5y ago
  Lattner’s post linked to an example of a heated discussion: https://forums.swift.org/t/if-let-shorthand/54230/188 https://forums.swift.org/t/if-let-shorthand/54230/188
  - bob1029 5y ago
    I'd like to take a HN poll on whether or not this is even "heated". Seems like extremely healthy debate upon my first scan through.
    - _ea1k 5y ago
      That doesn't seem bad at all from my cursory glance at it.
    - sprkwd 5y ago
      If every forum conversation i had was like this i’d soon stop being part of it.
      - manmal 5y ago
        This is not a normal forum conversation though. It influences binaries on billions of devices. Lattner wanted to push his own opinion and got (IMO) gently rejected. Fair enough.
        zozbot234 5y ago
        Lattner's point was that high-level design considerations should be thoroughly discussed well before even finalizing the design, never mind the bikeshedding on syntax that takes up much of the thread. Swift's design discussions seem severely dysfunctional compared to how other languages do these things, e.g. Python's Enhancement Proposals, Java's Community processes or Rust's RFC's.
        manmal 5y ago
        Well if the topic is a minor syntax sugar (if let), then you need to talk syntax. I don’t see any bikeshedding here.
    - ModernMech 5y ago
      Healthy? The linked post reads as very snide. Ben starts with claims that Chris isn't viewing his comments in context as being opinion. Rather than move on at that point, he turns around and decides to nitpick one of Chris' statements, characterizes it as hyperbolic and extreme (The extremely hyperbolic phrase in question was "betray a lot of expectations and introduce a lot of bugs." Wow, such extreme hyperbole). Ben then goes on to call another one of Chris' posts as representative of a part of a broader trend of "performative misunderstanding", basically calling Chris and others disingenuous. He then dismisses Chris' concerns out of hand as "a possible but frankly implausible misinterpretation", and says that his behavior is a "real problem" that worsens the goodness of other proposals. I'm not saying that either party here is in the right, or that the discussion as a whole is in Chris' favor, but I would say this thread is definitely not an example of healthy debate. You don't call your interlocutor disingenuous in healthy debate hyperbolically nitpick their posts as hyperbolic. That's not debate, it's squabbling.

ironmagma 5y ago

I don’t have any hope for the incumbent OS players. They clearly can’t get their priorities straight, and it’s sad that even within these OS vendors the native application development platforms are rotting in favor of cloud and web investments. Think about it, .NET is being sunsetted in favor of .NET Core, but the latter still doesn’t have desktop support and shows no signs of it. SwiftUI is a total letdown from what I’ve heard. It is ripe for disruption, that’s why I’ve been studying OSDev ceaselessly of late and hope I can find some more OS-minded people to collaborate with.

anonymouse008 5y ago
[Edit: I might be the worst developer on the planet, so take it all with a grain of fine salt] Yup, hot take: SwiftUI is hot garbage. Declarative rendering is the worst rendering: it's code written that doesn't have to be written. The beautiful thing about UIKit, NSLayout, and Storyboards, is that when used effectively, not much UI code has to be written, and when it does, it matters. Now everything has to be written to hells end. And not only do I need a mental diagram of my UI in rendered state, I need it in code state as well. If someone could enlighten me, I would gladly take the lesson. Edit: I'm very happy I posted this to learn. I used UITextViews extensively in my only app development, and was extremely frustrated with SwiftUIs readiness on that front. That said, I still like that my code can reflect the 'flow of thought' rather than the strictness of the UI when developing. I guess a lot of the property wrappers got to me too And all the improvements given to declarative rendering could be embodied in updates to Storyboards and the like.
- ironmagma 5y ago
  I think declarative rendering has definite value. When you aren’t using it, you end up having to track your own dirty flags, and often that means you will neglect to update them properly, leading to inconsistent UI. CPUs are fast now, there is no reason to not be doing a few extra tree comparisons if it eliminates bugs and speeds up the development process. The criticisms I’ve heard of SwiftUI come from a guy who absolutely loved React. I think the problems are unrelated to the overall idea of declarative rendering being flawed.

deleted 5y ago

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GeekyBear 5y ago

I'm pretty sure that Rust didn't fall apart when it's creator, Graydon Hoare, left Mozilla to work on Swift at Apple.

b3morales 5y ago
It's less this one person's (Chris) presence or absence and more the sanctioning (implicit or not) of shitty behavior from some other person or persons.
- GeekyBear 5y ago
  Yep. I'm not a fan of people who think yelling is a normal part of debate. I think this comes down to Chris being a very busy person who has better things to do with his time than argue about the direction of a project he no longer controls.
snek_case 5y ago
My understanding is Swift doesn't have the same level of openness and community involvement as Rust. Apple has a lot more control over the language.
- GeekyBear 5y ago
  Isn't that what normally happens when the language has important in-house use cases? >Go has community contributions but it is not a community project. It is Google's project. This is an unarguable thing, whether you consider it to be good or bad, and it has effects that we need to accept. For example, if you want some significant thing to be accepted into Go, working to build consensus in the community is far less important than persuading the Go core team. https://utcc.utoronto.ca/~cks/space/blog/programming/GoIsGooglesLanguage https://utcc.utoronto.ca/~cks/space/blog/programming/GoIsGoo...
  - snek_case 5y ago
    I understand why Apple has a vested interest in maintaining control over the language. What I'm saying is that this puts Swift at a disadvantage in terms of broad adoption and the odds of the language surviving its creator leaving when compared to a language like Rust that has real community involvement and is perceived by everyone as more neutral.

deleted 5y ago

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