5 ms·

I find other women attractive, but the idea of bedding another woman is not appealing to me. The idea of my wife laying with another man is damn near infuriatin

I find other women attractive, but the idea of bedding another woman is not appealing to me. The idea of my wife laying with another man is damn near infuriating. I don't know how anyone could get past the emotional response to their husband or wife having a side partner. Mentally, I would have to see my wife as just another girlfriend but then I would have to question why I am married.

gonehome 5y ago
Yeah, built in male ev-psych concern about sex (and really it’s the connection to paternity) vs female concern about resource investment. Poly people argue you can learn to get over these things, but I’m not so sure. I remember reading poly tends to appear in communities where there are men with very high status and wealth. In that context it makes sense men would push for harems (like a gorilla) and try to persuade others to do this too (obviously with more complex better sounding arguments than “I want a harem”), but I remain pretty skeptical. Ultimately people can do what they want. I’m just skeptical it’d work out. Of course it’s in my interest to argue that otherwise dating gets even worse for men so who knows? I thought this rationally speaking podcast on the topic was great: http://rationallyspeakingpodcast.org/216-being-a-transhumanist-evolutionary-psychologist-diana-fleischman/ http://rationallyspeakingpodcast.org/216-being-a-transhumani... This Sam Harris podcast about why people cheat was also really good: https://youtu.be/N4B9krAxIpY https://youtu.be/N4B9krAxIpY The latter goes into interesting things like how men tend to ask “did you sleep with him” and women focus on “do you love her”. The former being an obvious risk of the baby not being yours and “wasting” resources on someone else’s baby, the latter showing risk of abandonment of investment. The selective pressures for this psychology seems reasonable. Also sex is a commodity for women, not for (most) men - how it’s valued is different. They also talk about why each side cheats (more interesting in the women case imo) and things like how women tend to (unknowingly) curate backup mate options to protect against disaster. My hypothesis is the nastiness directed towards women that sleep around is also tied up in this stuff too. It lowers investment required from men. Women have an incentive to shame others from doing this even if they don’t really know why they do so.
- PaulHoule 5y ago
  That's a backwards way of looking at it. It is typical for passion to fade in relationships and superficially it often looks like the woman has lost passion first and people come to conclusions like "men like sex better than women like sex." I think actually women are quicker to get bored with boring monogamous sex whereas many men will tolerate mediocre sex (keeps your prostate gland for clogging up for one thing...) The highest libido women have a higher sexual capacity than the highest libido men. It's a consequence, for one thing, of the refractory period of the male organ. Assuming a poly relationship involves some amount of emotional closeness and seriousness it's hard to believe a poly man can really serve more than 2 or 3 women at a time but a woman who is sexually voracious can have 5 or more lovers. Quite a few women who are not responsive with their husbands might experience a sexual awakening with somebody else, if only because of the power of new relationship energy. So Poly in the modern world is not about a man having a harem (women have multiple partners too) but instead people developing networks for passion, mutual support, resource sharing, etc. Personally I have been there and done that with children but I still like the feelings of falling in love and I want to develop those feelings and share them with people as a high art.
  - gonehome 5y ago
    > “I think actually women are quicker to get bored with boring monogamous sex whereas many men will tolerate mediocre sex” Women have easy access to sex in a way that most men don’t. I think that’s probably the reason men are happy to have anything. I don’t know that I buy women care a lot about novel sex after the novelty wears off. > “a woman who is sexually voracious can have 5 or more lovers” I doubt the men are happy about this for the reasons I talk about. Yes, lots of women have lots of partners in their 20s when they’re high status and lots of men are competing for them. IME most burn out of this and find it unfulfilling about the time it also starts to become more competitive, there’s no investment. > “So Poly in the modern world is not about a man having a harem (women have multiple partners too) but instead people developing networks for passion, mutual support, resource sharing, etc.” This is the thing I’m skeptical of. Men are willing to sleep with pretty young women and will put up with competing with others if they must (don’t have a choice, fairly rare for young women not to have some sort of partner), but would rather not. Women eventually want investment, but will sleep around when they’re young to size up mates (and because it’s fun). High status men would be okay with poly if it meant they had lots of female partners only and pretend it’s all this other stuff. I just don’t think you can turn off billions of years of selective pressures around these feelings. Maybe you can choose to ignore them, but I’m not so sure.
PaulHoule 5y ago
Three elements in a relationship are: passion, commitment and emotional intimacy. You can have the last two and not have the first and if those things are highly developed then there doesn't have to be a conflict over loving other people also. My wife is by no means "just another girlfriend" but I can say the stress over mismatched libido that existed for a long time was much worse than any stress that comes out of having metamours.
scrollaway 5y ago
Poly checking in. It’s not about the sex necessarily, it’s more about being able to share yourself with multiple people. I have three people in my life that I share myself with: one person I absolutely adore and intend to marry, one I like but with whom the connection is purely physical, and one I dearly love and who is asexual and never have physical contact with. I have no problem sharing those people either as long as the expectations are correctly set. My SOs having sex with someone else is a non issue as long as they feel comfortable telling me about it (there is no lying or breach of trust). The classic question: is it cheating if you just kiss? If you just cuddle? If you just hug? What if it’s a hug with “more” intent behind it? The reality is, it’s cheating when there is breach of trust.
globular-toast 5y ago
I don't want my women being with other men either. You can still be with other women, though, as long as everyone is comfortable. It didn't really work for me because I found it requires far too much emotional energy and the sex wasn't worth it in the end. Having a harem isn't really compatible with going to work etc.

gonehome 5y ago

Yeah, built in male ev-psych concern about sex (and really it’s the connection to paternity) vs female concern about resource investment. Poly people argue you can learn to get over these things, but I’m not so sure. I remember reading poly tends to appear in communities where there are men with very high status and wealth. In that context it makes sense men would push for harems (like a gorilla) and try to persuade others to do this too (obviously with more complex better sounding arguments than “I want a harem”), but I remain pretty skeptical. Ultimately people can do what they want. I’m just skeptical it’d work out. Of course it’s in my interest to argue that otherwise dating gets even worse for men so who knows? I thought this rationally speaking podcast on the topic was great: http://rationallyspeakingpodcast.org/216-being-a-transhumanist-evolutionary-psychologist-diana-fleischman/ http://rationallyspeakingpodcast.org/216-being-a-transhumani... This Sam Harris podcast about why people cheat was also really good: https://youtu.be/N4B9krAxIpY https://youtu.be/N4B9krAxIpY The latter goes into interesting things like how men tend to ask “did you sleep with him” and women focus on “do you love her”. The former being an obvious risk of the baby not being yours and “wasting” resources on someone else’s baby, the latter showing risk of abandonment of investment. The selective pressures for this psychology seems reasonable. Also sex is a commodity for women, not for (most) men - how it’s valued is different. They also talk about why each side cheats (more interesting in the women case imo) and things like how women tend to (unknowingly) curate backup mate options to protect against disaster. My hypothesis is the nastiness directed towards women that sleep around is also tied up in this stuff too. It lowers investment required from men. Women have an incentive to shame others from doing this even if they don’t really know why they do so.

PaulHoule 5y ago
That's a backwards way of looking at it. It is typical for passion to fade in relationships and superficially it often looks like the woman has lost passion first and people come to conclusions like "men like sex better than women like sex." I think actually women are quicker to get bored with boring monogamous sex whereas many men will tolerate mediocre sex (keeps your prostate gland for clogging up for one thing...) The highest libido women have a higher sexual capacity than the highest libido men. It's a consequence, for one thing, of the refractory period of the male organ. Assuming a poly relationship involves some amount of emotional closeness and seriousness it's hard to believe a poly man can really serve more than 2 or 3 women at a time but a woman who is sexually voracious can have 5 or more lovers. Quite a few women who are not responsive with their husbands might experience a sexual awakening with somebody else, if only because of the power of new relationship energy. So Poly in the modern world is not about a man having a harem (women have multiple partners too) but instead people developing networks for passion, mutual support, resource sharing, etc. Personally I have been there and done that with children but I still like the feelings of falling in love and I want to develop those feelings and share them with people as a high art.
- gonehome 5y ago
  > “I think actually women are quicker to get bored with boring monogamous sex whereas many men will tolerate mediocre sex” Women have easy access to sex in a way that most men don’t. I think that’s probably the reason men are happy to have anything. I don’t know that I buy women care a lot about novel sex after the novelty wears off. > “a woman who is sexually voracious can have 5 or more lovers” I doubt the men are happy about this for the reasons I talk about. Yes, lots of women have lots of partners in their 20s when they’re high status and lots of men are competing for them. IME most burn out of this and find it unfulfilling about the time it also starts to become more competitive, there’s no investment. > “So Poly in the modern world is not about a man having a harem (women have multiple partners too) but instead people developing networks for passion, mutual support, resource sharing, etc.” This is the thing I’m skeptical of. Men are willing to sleep with pretty young women and will put up with competing with others if they must (don’t have a choice, fairly rare for young women not to have some sort of partner), but would rather not. Women eventually want investment, but will sleep around when they’re young to size up mates (and because it’s fun). High status men would be okay with poly if it meant they had lots of female partners only and pretend it’s all this other stuff. I just don’t think you can turn off billions of years of selective pressures around these feelings. Maybe you can choose to ignore them, but I’m not so sure.

PaulHoule 5y ago

Three elements in a relationship are: passion, commitment and emotional intimacy. You can have the last two and not have the first and if those things are highly developed then there doesn't have to be a conflict over loving other people also. My wife is by no means "just another girlfriend" but I can say the stress over mismatched libido that existed for a long time was much worse than any stress that comes out of having metamours.

scrollaway 5y ago

Poly checking in. It’s not about the sex necessarily, it’s more about being able to share yourself with multiple people. I have three people in my life that I share myself with: one person I absolutely adore and intend to marry, one I like but with whom the connection is purely physical, and one I dearly love and who is asexual and never have physical contact with. I have no problem sharing those people either as long as the expectations are correctly set. My SOs having sex with someone else is a non issue as long as they feel comfortable telling me about it (there is no lying or breach of trust). The classic question: is it cheating if you just kiss? If you just cuddle? If you just hug? What if it’s a hug with “more” intent behind it? The reality is, it’s cheating when there is breach of trust.

globular-toast 5y ago

I don't want my women being with other men either. You can still be with other women, though, as long as everyone is comfortable. It didn't really work for me because I found it requires far too much emotional energy and the sex wasn't worth it in the end. Having a harem isn't really compatible with going to work etc.