7 ms·

Another factor might be differences in libido...something that's not as big a factor with the relationship is new, as both are more willing to meet in the middl

Another factor might be differences in libido...something that's not as big a factor with the relationship is new, as both are more willing to meet in the middle. I'm in the middle of the LAST difference in Libido in our marriage (she's hit menopause, my Testosterone is waning, but not as fast as hers)...and it's literally the only friction point in an otherwise wonderful marriage. Money is better, kids are moving on, and I can see that eventually our libidos will again be in alignment. I also see why the old guy divorces his longtime wife for the younger, fresher, gal...and by the time SHE'S hitting menopause, he's there too. I don't see that happening in my case, but if there were other issues in a marriage, I could see how it might be a stronger lever to getting out of that marriage.

PaulHoule 5y ago
It's also a reason to be poly. It's unreasonable to believe that two people are going to be able to satisfy all of each other's needs for 30+ years. Serial monogamy is accepted in our culture but it's an immoral solution that doesn't take commitment seriously and assumes you can just throw people away. I've seen people get that "new relationship energy", jump into a new "monogamous" relationship and then a year or two later they are breaking up with that person. Passionate love is really its own thing that is all the better when you don't confuse it with raising children, growing old with someone, etc.
- Damogran6 5y ago
  See, I'd like the idea of getting that scratch itched, I just don't want to risk -everything-else-we've-built-together on it.
  - PaulHoule 5y ago
    Different people have different experiences. It is very possible your spouse will be 100% cool with it and even experience "compersion" which is taking pleasure in you being happy. (Mine does) She might see this as better than getting nagged about it, dutifully trying to do something and leaving everybody disappointed, or just finding you hard to live with because you're not satisfied. If you look at forums where people talk about poly life though you see there are big variations in the quality of consent. For instance sometimes one partner cheats and then tries to get their spouse to consent with it after the fact. Sometimes one partner asks permission and has a hard time getting it. Sometimes you can get permission in the abstract but when somebody specific comes into focus there is a jealousy problem. I can pass for a "cheating monogamist" because my expectations for a metamour are somewhat like that for having an affair. That is, there is no expectation of a "threesome" and my wife doesn't have to approve anybody, although one of the best experiences I can offer somebody is coming out to my farm where they will probably meet my wife (who teaches people to ride horses) and ideally they get along. Other people have elaborate situations where there is a triad or a pair of couples, a rule you can only sleep over one night a week or other structures that help people feel secure. (Then there are those "unicorn hunters" who are looking for a young hot bi babe and all I can say is I hope that you realize that is not what poly means to me or most poly people.)
    - Damogran6 5y ago
      Which all seems like a whole lot more complicated and incindiary compared to taking things to hand…but self-love isn’t as fulfilling. There was a comic, it had two therapists talking to each other, one said “So I suggested they investigate poly”, the other therapist said “Did that work?” And the first therapist said “Ha! Oh GOD no!” I’m paraphrasing, but I suspect in a lot of cases ‘looking outside the marriage’ sets things in motion I really don’t want to set in motion.
    - awb 5y ago
      What rules do you have in place about meeting other people in your community or seeing them multiple times? Is your partner not concerned that you might fall in love with someone else?
      - PaulHoule 5y ago
        No rules. My partner and I don't think there is any problem (in terms of being able to do it, practical, moral, etc...) in loving more than one person at a time. There is a limit of how much time and energy that you have to pursue relationships, but if you have a 20 hour a week video game habit you have "time enough to love" a metamour. I have read a lot about it and also done a lot of introspection and found that being attracted or attached to another person doesn't diminish the love I have for my wife at all. It's not like there is a certain amount to go around but you can experience more. Call me a throwback to another place and another time but I have little interest in casual sex but I love that feeling of falling in love, that feeling when you catch eyes with somebody and the next thing you know they sing and invade your personal space and when I am not working on a relationship I am developing my ability to share these feelings with people and give them a really great time as well as patching them into a supportive social network that includes my family.
      - graphpercolator 5y ago
        When I have done this the rule I got was from Tommy Lee and Pam Anderson back in the day. There is no multiple times. Just a one off hook up. Just sex. Multiple times would be a betrayal of trust. We only did it a few times but it was fun for sure.
- mmcgaha 5y ago
  I find other women attractive, but the idea of bedding another woman is not appealing to me. The idea of my wife laying with another man is damn near infuriating. I don't know how anyone could get past the emotional response to their husband or wife having a side partner. Mentally, I would have to see my wife as just another girlfriend but then I would have to question why I am married.
  - gonehome 5y ago
    Yeah, built in male ev-psych concern about sex (and really it’s the connection to paternity) vs female concern about resource investment. Poly people argue you can learn to get over these things, but I’m not so sure. I remember reading poly tends to appear in communities where there are men with very high status and wealth. In that context it makes sense men would push for harems (like a gorilla) and try to persuade others to do this too (obviously with more complex better sounding arguments than “I want a harem”), but I remain pretty skeptical. Ultimately people can do what they want. I’m just skeptical it’d work out. Of course it’s in my interest to argue that otherwise dating gets even worse for men so who knows? I thought this rationally speaking podcast on the topic was great: http://rationallyspeakingpodcast.org/216-being-a-transhumanist-evolutionary-psychologist-diana-fleischman/ http://rationallyspeakingpodcast.org/216-being-a-transhumani... This Sam Harris podcast about why people cheat was also really good: https://youtu.be/N4B9krAxIpY https://youtu.be/N4B9krAxIpY The latter goes into interesting things like how men tend to ask “did you sleep with him” and women focus on “do you love her”. The former being an obvious risk of the baby not being yours and “wasting” resources on someone else’s baby, the latter showing risk of abandonment of investment. The selective pressures for this psychology seems reasonable. Also sex is a commodity for women, not for (most) men - how it’s valued is different. They also talk about why each side cheats (more interesting in the women case imo) and things like how women tend to (unknowingly) curate backup mate options to protect against disaster. My hypothesis is the nastiness directed towards women that sleep around is also tied up in this stuff too. It lowers investment required from men. Women have an incentive to shame others from doing this even if they don’t really know why they do so.
    - PaulHoule 5y ago
- mercutio2 5y ago
  I’m all for encouraging more societal support for ethical non-monogamy, but calling monogamy immoral is really an inflammatory way of framing things. Seems unlikely to win many people over.
  - PaulHoule 5y ago
    I'm not saying "monogamy" is immoral but that "serial monogamy" as it is often practiced is. That is, I have seen so many people find a new person really exciting, something they could get over if they could experience having an exciting time with that person without having to break up their relationships to do it. (Alternately "unrealistic" might be another adjective to use: people really do get bored, they really do desire excitement. There is nothing wrong with pursuing passion because you are bored but almost all the time when you do this it is going to burn out... So trading a boring stable relationship for excitement is going to almost always hurt people, have a harmful effect, and thus be "wrong" or "immoral" in my eyes.)
    - Kye 5y ago
      edit: nope
      - wintermutestwin 5y ago
        I don't find the word "failed" to be helpful at all. I was married for 15 years. We divorced. I do not look back on that relationship and consider it "failed." It lasted for 15 years, most of them were great and we accomplished a lot of incredible things through our partnership. Both of us have moved on to new relationships and we are still friends. I consider that relationship to be highly successful. Of course, my experience took a great deal of emotional maturity, which was developed through a series of monogamous relationships. Serial monogamy gets a bad rap IMO. Luckily I have enough emotional maturity to know that I don't have enough emotional maturity to pull of poly. In my reasonably broad experience with poly folks, the vast majority don't either.
        5y ago
- antiterra 5y ago
  This sort of moral superiority argument for open relationships largely harms the perception of those relationships. It definitely works better for some people, but it can be a complete disaster for others. The nature of the relationship itself directly spawns challenging situations that can trigger intense emotions and insecurity. Logical people with very high emotional intelligence who have read the latest books on ethical non-monogamy are not magically immune to the difficulties. As an example, I have met a number of people who genuinely are not attracted in any significant way to people that are not their current partner. Forcing those people into an open relationship would only create misery. They simply aren’t interested in anyone else.
- jimbob45 5y ago
  I always pay attention to poly success stories but it always seems like, when I scratch beneath the surface, the couples have problems just as serious as in monogamous relationships. It seems like they’re swapping out one set of problems for another.
  - PaulHoule 5y ago
    Most of the evidence is that poly people are pretty boring https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33956295/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33956295/ that is it is not a dangerous lifestyle. Poly people have a similar level of satisfaction in most ways as mono people.
    - giantg2 5y ago
      " it is not a dangerous lifestyle." I think that's highly dependent on the rules/steps one follows to stay healthy. And many people who rely on testing don't have a clue of how to properly use it (timing).
kingcharles 5y ago
I mostly agree with this, but women's libido is such a complex beast compared to a man's. I've found it very hard as a man in the past to pay attention to the factors that affect my partner's sex drive, especially stress. Stress is a variable that I find tends to increase throughout adulthood as more responsibilities are piled onto your life. Stress is a huge factor in reducing a woman's libido, and men need to realize that their partner's desire for sex works in a totally different way to theirs, for the most part.

PaulHoule 5y ago

It's also a reason to be poly. It's unreasonable to believe that two people are going to be able to satisfy all of each other's needs for 30+ years. Serial monogamy is accepted in our culture but it's an immoral solution that doesn't take commitment seriously and assumes you can just throw people away. I've seen people get that "new relationship energy", jump into a new "monogamous" relationship and then a year or two later they are breaking up with that person. Passionate love is really its own thing that is all the better when you don't confuse it with raising children, growing old with someone, etc.

Damogran6 5y ago
See, I'd like the idea of getting that scratch itched, I just don't want to risk -everything-else-we've-built-together on it.
- PaulHoule 5y ago
  Different people have different experiences. It is very possible your spouse will be 100% cool with it and even experience "compersion" which is taking pleasure in you being happy. (Mine does) She might see this as better than getting nagged about it, dutifully trying to do something and leaving everybody disappointed, or just finding you hard to live with because you're not satisfied. If you look at forums where people talk about poly life though you see there are big variations in the quality of consent. For instance sometimes one partner cheats and then tries to get their spouse to consent with it after the fact. Sometimes one partner asks permission and has a hard time getting it. Sometimes you can get permission in the abstract but when somebody specific comes into focus there is a jealousy problem. I can pass for a "cheating monogamist" because my expectations for a metamour are somewhat like that for having an affair. That is, there is no expectation of a "threesome" and my wife doesn't have to approve anybody, although one of the best experiences I can offer somebody is coming out to my farm where they will probably meet my wife (who teaches people to ride horses) and ideally they get along. Other people have elaborate situations where there is a triad or a pair of couples, a rule you can only sleep over one night a week or other structures that help people feel secure. (Then there are those "unicorn hunters" who are looking for a young hot bi babe and all I can say is I hope that you realize that is not what poly means to me or most poly people.)
  - Damogran6 5y ago
    Which all seems like a whole lot more complicated and incindiary compared to taking things to hand…but self-love isn’t as fulfilling. There was a comic, it had two therapists talking to each other, one said “So I suggested they investigate poly”, the other therapist said “Did that work?” And the first therapist said “Ha! Oh GOD no!” I’m paraphrasing, but I suspect in a lot of cases ‘looking outside the marriage’ sets things in motion I really don’t want to set in motion.
  - awb 5y ago
    What rules do you have in place about meeting other people in your community or seeing them multiple times? Is your partner not concerned that you might fall in love with someone else?
    - PaulHoule 5y ago
      No rules. My partner and I don't think there is any problem (in terms of being able to do it, practical, moral, etc...) in loving more than one person at a time. There is a limit of how much time and energy that you have to pursue relationships, but if you have a 20 hour a week video game habit you have "time enough to love" a metamour. I have read a lot about it and also done a lot of introspection and found that being attracted or attached to another person doesn't diminish the love I have for my wife at all. It's not like there is a certain amount to go around but you can experience more. Call me a throwback to another place and another time but I have little interest in casual sex but I love that feeling of falling in love, that feeling when you catch eyes with somebody and the next thing you know they sing and invade your personal space and when I am not working on a relationship I am developing my ability to share these feelings with people and give them a really great time as well as patching them into a supportive social network that includes my family.
    - graphpercolator 5y ago
      When I have done this the rule I got was from Tommy Lee and Pam Anderson back in the day. There is no multiple times. Just a one off hook up. Just sex. Multiple times would be a betrayal of trust. We only did it a few times but it was fun for sure.
mmcgaha 5y ago
I find other women attractive, but the idea of bedding another woman is not appealing to me. The idea of my wife laying with another man is damn near infuriating. I don't know how anyone could get past the emotional response to their husband or wife having a side partner. Mentally, I would have to see my wife as just another girlfriend but then I would have to question why I am married.
- gonehome 5y ago
  Yeah, built in male ev-psych concern about sex (and really it’s the connection to paternity) vs female concern about resource investment. Poly people argue you can learn to get over these things, but I’m not so sure. I remember reading poly tends to appear in communities where there are men with very high status and wealth. In that context it makes sense men would push for harems (like a gorilla) and try to persuade others to do this too (obviously with more complex better sounding arguments than “I want a harem”), but I remain pretty skeptical. Ultimately people can do what they want. I’m just skeptical it’d work out. Of course it’s in my interest to argue that otherwise dating gets even worse for men so who knows? I thought this rationally speaking podcast on the topic was great: http://rationallyspeakingpodcast.org/216-being-a-transhumanist-evolutionary-psychologist-diana-fleischman/ http://rationallyspeakingpodcast.org/216-being-a-transhumani... This Sam Harris podcast about why people cheat was also really good: https://youtu.be/N4B9krAxIpY https://youtu.be/N4B9krAxIpY The latter goes into interesting things like how men tend to ask “did you sleep with him” and women focus on “do you love her”. The former being an obvious risk of the baby not being yours and “wasting” resources on someone else’s baby, the latter showing risk of abandonment of investment. The selective pressures for this psychology seems reasonable. Also sex is a commodity for women, not for (most) men - how it’s valued is different. They also talk about why each side cheats (more interesting in the women case imo) and things like how women tend to (unknowingly) curate backup mate options to protect against disaster. My hypothesis is the nastiness directed towards women that sleep around is also tied up in this stuff too. It lowers investment required from men. Women have an incentive to shame others from doing this even if they don’t really know why they do so.
  - PaulHoule 5y ago
mercutio2 5y ago
I’m all for encouraging more societal support for ethical non-monogamy, but calling monogamy immoral is really an inflammatory way of framing things. Seems unlikely to win many people over.
- PaulHoule 5y ago
  I'm not saying "monogamy" is immoral but that "serial monogamy" as it is often practiced is. That is, I have seen so many people find a new person really exciting, something they could get over if they could experience having an exciting time with that person without having to break up their relationships to do it. (Alternately "unrealistic" might be another adjective to use: people really do get bored, they really do desire excitement. There is nothing wrong with pursuing passion because you are bored but almost all the time when you do this it is going to burn out... So trading a boring stable relationship for excitement is going to almost always hurt people, have a harmful effect, and thus be "wrong" or "immoral" in my eyes.)
  - Kye 5y ago
    edit: nope
    - wintermutestwin 5y ago
      I don't find the word "failed" to be helpful at all. I was married for 15 years. We divorced. I do not look back on that relationship and consider it "failed." It lasted for 15 years, most of them were great and we accomplished a lot of incredible things through our partnership. Both of us have moved on to new relationships and we are still friends. I consider that relationship to be highly successful. Of course, my experience took a great deal of emotional maturity, which was developed through a series of monogamous relationships. Serial monogamy gets a bad rap IMO. Luckily I have enough emotional maturity to know that I don't have enough emotional maturity to pull of poly. In my reasonably broad experience with poly folks, the vast majority don't either.
      - 5y ago
antiterra 5y ago
This sort of moral superiority argument for open relationships largely harms the perception of those relationships. It definitely works better for some people, but it can be a complete disaster for others. The nature of the relationship itself directly spawns challenging situations that can trigger intense emotions and insecurity. Logical people with very high emotional intelligence who have read the latest books on ethical non-monogamy are not magically immune to the difficulties. As an example, I have met a number of people who genuinely are not attracted in any significant way to people that are not their current partner. Forcing those people into an open relationship would only create misery. They simply aren’t interested in anyone else.
jimbob45 5y ago
I always pay attention to poly success stories but it always seems like, when I scratch beneath the surface, the couples have problems just as serious as in monogamous relationships. It seems like they’re swapping out one set of problems for another.
- PaulHoule 5y ago
  Most of the evidence is that poly people are pretty boring https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33956295/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33956295/ that is it is not a dangerous lifestyle. Poly people have a similar level of satisfaction in most ways as mono people.
  - giantg2 5y ago
    " it is not a dangerous lifestyle." I think that's highly dependent on the rules/steps one follows to stay healthy. And many people who rely on testing don't have a clue of how to properly use it (timing).

kingcharles 5y ago

I mostly agree with this, but women's libido is such a complex beast compared to a man's. I've found it very hard as a man in the past to pay attention to the factors that affect my partner's sex drive, especially stress. Stress is a variable that I find tends to increase throughout adulthood as more responsibilities are piled onto your life. Stress is a huge factor in reducing a woman's libido, and men need to realize that their partner's desire for sex works in a totally different way to theirs, for the most part.