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If you really think that’s a useful description of Gorbeschev, where are you getting your history from? Is Cuba a “tyrannical dictatorship”? How did Pinochet

If you really think that’s a useful description of Gorbeschev, where are you getting your history from? Is Cuba a “tyrannical dictatorship”? How did Pinochet fall?

onenukecourse 5y ago
Gorby appears to be the sole exception. Might have something to do with having close family killed in the famines, and tortured in the Gulags. Every European other regime fell under pressure from the streets. Cuba is a tyranny. They've soften up to get European investment and tourists, but they're brutal in their indoctrination, imprisonment of dissidents, etc. They're also an important (and beloved) backstop preventing American domination in L. America. Pinochet didn't fall, he basically handed over power peacefully. His (surprisingly liberal) constitution of 1980 established him as head of the armed forces (which he was until he died) and promised free elections. He allowed for a fair and free elections in '88 that he lost and whose result he respected paving the way for the 1990 presidential elections. Again he lost and respected the result. He's also a murderer who slaughtered thousands of innocents, but that's peanuts compared what the commies have wrought. Everything I wrote is a gross oversimplification. Volumes have been written for each of the three topics you glibly referenced.
- nopenopenopeno 5y ago
  You do realize Pinochet was a capitalist dictator and the people he murdered were socialists, no? And you have to be absolutely brainwashed to believe Cuba is a “tyrannical dictatorship.”
  - onenukecourse 5y ago
    "Pinochet was a capitalist dictator" If you read my comment carefully I clearly state: - Pinochet slaughtered (tens) thousands of innocents - Cuba is a backstop to American imperialism in the region which I clearly eluded as a good thing for those L. Americans outside of Cuba (at least until Americans drop their Monroe BS). My parents are from Argentina and lost many friends, students and professors (luckily no family) to capitalist dictators. The battles of L. America literally run through my blood. I think I am very well aware who the Chilean equivalent of Videla is. Pinochet, however, must be recognized for having relinquished power unlike his Argentine capitalist counter parts and Cuban socialist counterparts. Anyway, I think I have demonstrated a little more nuance in this very complicated topic than trite single line slogans. I am not a "capitalist", whatever that means. I reject the destructive "socialism" vs "capitalism" false dichotomy.
    - nopenopenopeno 5y ago
      > I reject the destructive "socialism" vs "capitalism" false dichotomy. Nothing could expose your class position as much as your suggestion that Cuba’s leaders are Pinochet’s “counterparts.” Pinochet was lifted into power by the American capitalist empire. Castro was lifted into power by the Cuban working class. It takes a lot of nerve to equate the two in any way, and even more to suggest that the latter should step down in spite of overwhelming support from the Cuban people.
      - onenukecourse 5y ago
        Nothing I said contradicts what you wrote. The US did assist Pinochet (bad). The Cuban people did revolt against Battista (good). You'd be surprised, however, how popular Pinochet is particularly among working class Chileans, just as you'd obviously be surprised how much support Cuba needed from the USSR to keep the regime together. Material support and training manuals on how to buttstock resistive people. Battista fell over 60 years ago, Cubans want something else. Reality is complicated, it cannot be reduced to pretty slogans.
        nopenopenopeno 5y ago
        I am not surprised by either! But, in both cases, the US has played an extremely aggressive role in generating the circumstances.
  - helloworld11 5y ago
    And what would you call the Cuba of the last several decades? A democratic politically liberal state that respects personal and political freedoms? I'm honestly curious. Also, you don't need to be brainwashed, you simply need to read, observe and speak to people who live or have lived there.
- mantas 5y ago
  Gorby is not exception. He was bad at his job, yet he still tried to do same shit. E.g. January 1991 events. Looking at the big picture it's clear that either he ordered tanks on his own civilians OR he knew about them and was too coward to come out that he lost chain-of-command.
helloworld11 5y ago
Cuba is indeed a tyrannical dictatorship and has been for decades. A one-party state that regularly arrested dissidents and those who simply didn't fit its ideal narratives even if they had committed no normally defined criminal offense. I can't at all imagine how you could define the decades under castro and his brother as anything close to democratic. By definition that would require political plurality, freedom of association and freedom of expression, all of which were and still are very visibly lacking in Cuban society. To say all of the above, by the way, is in no way to defend the also barbaric practices of the Pinochet regime. Pinochet however at least left power after a forceful referendum and peaceful transition to democracy. The ruling elite of Cuba never did and in no way ever even let things reach the point of an honest referendum.
Jensson 5y ago
> Is Cuba a “tyrannical dictatorship”? Yes, looks like it works just like any other communist state. Communism needs to be maintained through tyranny, people wouldn't vote for it if they could which is why communist states must constantly supress dissent and never allow people to vote for other parties. When people can vote they quickly vote out communism in favor of more liberal parties, communism is very short lived in free societies as when people try it they quickly learn to hate it. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/13/world/americas/cuba-judge.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/13/world/americas/cuba-judge...
- nopenopenopeno 5y ago
  Do you know anything about Cuba besides what the children of ex-Cuban plantation owners say?
  - Jensson 5y ago
    Could Cubans vote away communism if they wanted? If not then it isn't free. People could vote away capitalism in USA and become communist if they wanted. Every democracy could.
    - nopenopenopeno 5y ago
      Absolutely, but Cuba’s democracy is very localized and bottom up in order to prevent a wealthy ruling class from controlling dominant narratives, i.e. oligarchy like in the US. And they don’t hold ridiculous election performances every 4 years to wrangle consent from the public. Democracy is very sensitive and the liberal democracies in Western capitalist countries are brutally anti-democratic. Most Americans realize this but will be so quick to presume any other country a dictatorship. Cuba has never been a “dictatorship”. Castro and his successors were and still are deeply loved by the Cuban working class that put them into power. US leaders understand this and it’s why none of their attacks have penetrated. See: Bay of Pigs
      - thodin 5y ago
yucky 5y ago
>Is Cuba a “tyrannical dictatorship”? People aren't dying on makeshift rafts trying to get there, they're dying on makeshift rafts trying to escape.
mantas 5y ago
Gorbachiov? That dude who ordered tanks on my countrymen on 1991-01-13 yet he still pretends to be a peace savior? He can rot in hell.

If you really think that’s a useful description of Gorbeschev, where are you getting your history from? Is Cuba a “tyrannical dictatorship”? How did Pinochet fall?

onenukecourse 5y ago

Gorby appears to be the sole exception. Might have something to do with having close family killed in the famines, and tortured in the Gulags. Every European other regime fell under pressure from the streets. Cuba is a tyranny. They've soften up to get European investment and tourists, but they're brutal in their indoctrination, imprisonment of dissidents, etc. They're also an important (and beloved) backstop preventing American domination in L. America. Pinochet didn't fall, he basically handed over power peacefully. His (surprisingly liberal) constitution of 1980 established him as head of the armed forces (which he was until he died) and promised free elections. He allowed for a fair and free elections in '88 that he lost and whose result he respected paving the way for the 1990 presidential elections. Again he lost and respected the result. He's also a murderer who slaughtered thousands of innocents, but that's peanuts compared what the commies have wrought. Everything I wrote is a gross oversimplification. Volumes have been written for each of the three topics you glibly referenced.

nopenopenopeno 5y ago
You do realize Pinochet was a capitalist dictator and the people he murdered were socialists, no? And you have to be absolutely brainwashed to believe Cuba is a “tyrannical dictatorship.”
- onenukecourse 5y ago
  "Pinochet was a capitalist dictator" If you read my comment carefully I clearly state: - Pinochet slaughtered (tens) thousands of innocents - Cuba is a backstop to American imperialism in the region which I clearly eluded as a good thing for those L. Americans outside of Cuba (at least until Americans drop their Monroe BS). My parents are from Argentina and lost many friends, students and professors (luckily no family) to capitalist dictators. The battles of L. America literally run through my blood. I think I am very well aware who the Chilean equivalent of Videla is. Pinochet, however, must be recognized for having relinquished power unlike his Argentine capitalist counter parts and Cuban socialist counterparts. Anyway, I think I have demonstrated a little more nuance in this very complicated topic than trite single line slogans. I am not a "capitalist", whatever that means. I reject the destructive "socialism" vs "capitalism" false dichotomy.
  - nopenopenopeno 5y ago
    > I reject the destructive "socialism" vs "capitalism" false dichotomy. Nothing could expose your class position as much as your suggestion that Cuba’s leaders are Pinochet’s “counterparts.” Pinochet was lifted into power by the American capitalist empire. Castro was lifted into power by the Cuban working class. It takes a lot of nerve to equate the two in any way, and even more to suggest that the latter should step down in spite of overwhelming support from the Cuban people.
    - onenukecourse 5y ago
      Nothing I said contradicts what you wrote. The US did assist Pinochet (bad). The Cuban people did revolt against Battista (good). You'd be surprised, however, how popular Pinochet is particularly among working class Chileans, just as you'd obviously be surprised how much support Cuba needed from the USSR to keep the regime together. Material support and training manuals on how to buttstock resistive people. Battista fell over 60 years ago, Cubans want something else. Reality is complicated, it cannot be reduced to pretty slogans.
      - nopenopenopeno 5y ago
        I am not surprised by either! But, in both cases, the US has played an extremely aggressive role in generating the circumstances.
- helloworld11 5y ago
  And what would you call the Cuba of the last several decades? A democratic politically liberal state that respects personal and political freedoms? I'm honestly curious. Also, you don't need to be brainwashed, you simply need to read, observe and speak to people who live or have lived there.
mantas 5y ago
Gorby is not exception. He was bad at his job, yet he still tried to do same shit. E.g. January 1991 events. Looking at the big picture it's clear that either he ordered tanks on his own civilians OR he knew about them and was too coward to come out that he lost chain-of-command.

helloworld11 5y ago

Cuba is indeed a tyrannical dictatorship and has been for decades. A one-party state that regularly arrested dissidents and those who simply didn't fit its ideal narratives even if they had committed no normally defined criminal offense. I can't at all imagine how you could define the decades under castro and his brother as anything close to democratic. By definition that would require political plurality, freedom of association and freedom of expression, all of which were and still are very visibly lacking in Cuban society. To say all of the above, by the way, is in no way to defend the also barbaric practices of the Pinochet regime. Pinochet however at least left power after a forceful referendum and peaceful transition to democracy. The ruling elite of Cuba never did and in no way ever even let things reach the point of an honest referendum.

Jensson 5y ago

> Is Cuba a “tyrannical dictatorship”? Yes, looks like it works just like any other communist state. Communism needs to be maintained through tyranny, people wouldn't vote for it if they could which is why communist states must constantly supress dissent and never allow people to vote for other parties. When people can vote they quickly vote out communism in favor of more liberal parties, communism is very short lived in free societies as when people try it they quickly learn to hate it. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/13/world/americas/cuba-judge.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/13/world/americas/cuba-judge...

nopenopenopeno 5y ago
Do you know anything about Cuba besides what the children of ex-Cuban plantation owners say?
- Jensson 5y ago
  Could Cubans vote away communism if they wanted? If not then it isn't free. People could vote away capitalism in USA and become communist if they wanted. Every democracy could.
  - nopenopenopeno 5y ago
    Absolutely, but Cuba’s democracy is very localized and bottom up in order to prevent a wealthy ruling class from controlling dominant narratives, i.e. oligarchy like in the US. And they don’t hold ridiculous election performances every 4 years to wrangle consent from the public. Democracy is very sensitive and the liberal democracies in Western capitalist countries are brutally anti-democratic. Most Americans realize this but will be so quick to presume any other country a dictatorship. Cuba has never been a “dictatorship”. Castro and his successors were and still are deeply loved by the Cuban working class that put them into power. US leaders understand this and it’s why none of their attacks have penetrated. See: Bay of Pigs
    - thodin 5y ago

yucky 5y ago

>Is Cuba a “tyrannical dictatorship”? People aren't dying on makeshift rafts trying to get there, they're dying on makeshift rafts trying to escape.

mantas 5y ago

Gorbachiov? That dude who ordered tanks on my countrymen on 1991-01-13 yet he still pretends to be a peace savior? He can rot in hell.