4 ms·

> No lawyer, accountant, doctor, engineer, scientist or other professional stands up each day... I think this has a lot to do with the office culture of softwa

by biztos 5y ago

> No lawyer, accountant, doctor, engineer, scientist or other professional stands up each day... I think this has a lot to do with the office culture of software being figured out at the same time as the professionalization of Management and the trend of "methodologies" to give a veneer of objectivity to the managerial class. Combined with FOMO about the fortunes being made at certain other companies, whose whims and experiments are then followed. Whereas the other professions you mention had their office cultures defined in very different times. Once defined, these tend to be sticky. For example the extended hazing ritual by which we mint medical doctors in the USA is completely insane and would not be tolerated by doctors in most other countries, much less by non-doctors. Or for scientists, the amount of time many of them have to spend on acquiring funding for their employers instead of doing actual science, not to mention the very broken world of peer review. The thing that makes our situation special -- and which these people were probably reacting too -- is how transparently ridiculous, toxic, and demeaning a lot of it is. From open-plan offices to stand-ups to pair programming and on and on. I think we put up with this stuff because we are convinced we should be thankful for our fat paychecks and fear the Barbarian Hordes waiting to take our jobs for cheap in Elbonia.[0] That both of these things are objectively false has not made much difference in the last decade, but the salaries have gone up, so... [0]: https://dilbert.fandom.com/wiki/Elbonia https://dilbert.fandom.com/wiki/Elbonia

paganel 5y ago
> to pair programming and on and on. Glad someone else is mentioning this, about 10 years ago it seemed like it was the hottest trend and that anyone (meaning any programmer) not willing to adopt it was either too lazy or had something to hide, or, most probably, both.
mucholove 5y ago
Would love to know which countries don’t actually haze their doctors. Here in DR docs get hazed out the Wazoo-being told they don’t have the status to look at the head surgeon in the eye or being tasked to get coffee.
- biztos 5y ago
  Dominican Republic? I'm sure there is a lot of status-related meanness everywhere but I was thinking in particular of the US practice of intentionally and radically overworking people (to a level dangerous to both them and their patients) in order to prove they can take it, which is pretty much classic hazing. Wouldn't be surprised if it's copied elsewhere but I know it's not done everywhere.
  - sulam 5y ago
    It sounds awful to me, too, but in casual conversations with medical professionals who have been through it (and in some cases while they were going through it) they very frequently defend the process. It doesn’t sound like Stockholm Syndrome or gate-keeping justifications either. They basically say that it’s the best way to see/learn the full progression of a case. Essentially it comes down to charts and records can only communicate so much and actually being there is how the real learning happens. I don’t know if I buy it, but I do know one thing — systems like this usually carry really value, or they wouldn’t be so persistent.
  - vimy 5y ago
    I'm fairly sure that's the norm almost everywhere. It's not just to prove they can take it, hospitals like to use students as free labor. I know it happens in Western Europe.
gwbas1c 5y ago
> For example the extended hazing ritual by which we mint medical doctors in the USA is completely insane and would not be tolerated by doctors in most other countries I married a doctor. The "hazing" is slowly going out of fashion as older doctors retire. What they do have is a very nice licensing procedure. Yes, it's annoying, but it works a lot better when a doctor needs to get a job, because their interview process is much smoother than in the software field.
- spelunker 5y ago
  I have a wife who is a licensed nurse, and I was just blown away when I heard how the interview process goes for medical professionals. What, they trust your credentials at face value? You don't have to do procedures live in front of the interviewers? The interview is mostly _them_ trying to get you to work there? What a concept.
matheusmoreira 5y ago
> For example the extended hazing ritual by which we mint medical doctors in the USA is completely insane In case anyone wants a glimpse of how bad medical school could be: https://web.archive.org/web/20101218031844/http://www.medschoolhell.com/archives/ https://web.archive.org/web/20101218031844/http://www.medsch... It's a pretty old site, no idea what it's like now.

by biztos 5y ago

paganel 5y ago

> to pair programming and on and on. Glad someone else is mentioning this, about 10 years ago it seemed like it was the hottest trend and that anyone (meaning any programmer) not willing to adopt it was either too lazy or had something to hide, or, most probably, both.

mucholove 5y ago

Would love to know which countries don’t actually haze their doctors. Here in DR docs get hazed out the Wazoo-being told they don’t have the status to look at the head surgeon in the eye or being tasked to get coffee.

biztos 5y ago
Dominican Republic? I'm sure there is a lot of status-related meanness everywhere but I was thinking in particular of the US practice of intentionally and radically overworking people (to a level dangerous to both them and their patients) in order to prove they can take it, which is pretty much classic hazing. Wouldn't be surprised if it's copied elsewhere but I know it's not done everywhere.
- sulam 5y ago
  It sounds awful to me, too, but in casual conversations with medical professionals who have been through it (and in some cases while they were going through it) they very frequently defend the process. It doesn’t sound like Stockholm Syndrome or gate-keeping justifications either. They basically say that it’s the best way to see/learn the full progression of a case. Essentially it comes down to charts and records can only communicate so much and actually being there is how the real learning happens. I don’t know if I buy it, but I do know one thing — systems like this usually carry really value, or they wouldn’t be so persistent.
- vimy 5y ago
  I'm fairly sure that's the norm almost everywhere. It's not just to prove they can take it, hospitals like to use students as free labor. I know it happens in Western Europe.

gwbas1c 5y ago

> For example the extended hazing ritual by which we mint medical doctors in the USA is completely insane and would not be tolerated by doctors in most other countries I married a doctor. The "hazing" is slowly going out of fashion as older doctors retire. What they do have is a very nice licensing procedure. Yes, it's annoying, but it works a lot better when a doctor needs to get a job, because their interview process is much smoother than in the software field.

spelunker 5y ago
I have a wife who is a licensed nurse, and I was just blown away when I heard how the interview process goes for medical professionals. What, they trust your credentials at face value? You don't have to do procedures live in front of the interviewers? The interview is mostly _them_ trying to get you to work there? What a concept.

matheusmoreira 5y ago

> For example the extended hazing ritual by which we mint medical doctors in the USA is completely insane In case anyone wants a glimpse of how bad medical school could be: https://web.archive.org/web/20101218031844/http://www.medschoolhell.com/archives/ https://web.archive.org/web/20101218031844/http://www.medsch... It's a pretty old site, no idea what it's like now.