4 ms·

I don't drive or cycle (just a pedestrian) and definitely don't want to "dehumanize" cyclists, but I do find it scary (at least here in London) how rarely cycli

I don't drive or cycle (just a pedestrian) and definitely don't want to "dehumanize" cyclists, but I do find it scary (at least here in London) how rarely cyclists follow the Highway Code. In particular, it is very common to see cyclists running red lights or cycling the wrong way down one-way streets. I guess since there's no registration, it's very unlikely cyclists would be penalised for this.

ndsipa_pomu 5y ago
I think that cyclists running red lights is a symptom that most crossings and junctions are designed primarily for motor vehicles. Some countries modify traffic laws for cyclists such as the Idaho Stop and Paris has also made changes so that red lights can be treated as Give Way/Yield. However that does not excuse cyclists that endanger pedestrians. One-way streets are also seldom designed to take into account cyclists and again, they're designed for large motor vehicles. Here in the UK, there are lots of one-way streets that have a specific cycle lane to go the wrong way, but it's a lottery as to whether local councils have bothered to examine the one-ways.
unglaublich 5y ago
", but". That's because that highway code was designed for huge and heavy cars that need lots of time and space to come to a stop and that pose a danger for other road users. Not for agile and light cyclists. The rules just do not make a lot of sense for cyclists. E.g., in the Netherlands there are traffic lights for cyclists. They turn green for all 4 directions simultaneously, for only a few seconds. That's enough to have tens, sometimes hundreds of cyclists cross a road, WITHOUT any collision or danger. Cars are just too big and heavy for most urban areas. They belong on _highways_ indeed.
- maffydub 5y ago
  I'd be happy with the Highway Code being updated, or with other provision being made for cyclists, but it sounds like you're suggesting cyclists should just ignore the rules? The trouble with that is that by not following the rules, it's harder for other road users (in particular pedestrians) to predict what they're going to do. Even though bikes are much lighter than cars, I'd prefer not to be hot by either!
laputan_machine 5y ago
Many one-way / no-entry streets in Manchester specifically have ("except cycles") on them, not sure about London. E.g. https://www.google.com/maps/@53.4423463,-2.190167,3a,75y,71.77h,77.5t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sGe0_n-zzbwNAXznWKpS8Vg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DGe0_n-zzbwNAXznWKpS8Vg%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D97.58948%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192 https://www.google.com/maps/@53.4423463,-2.190167,3a,75y,71....
Lio 5y ago
I don't think registration would make a blind bit of difference to be honest, based on driver behaviour. I remember a Churchill Insurance report from 2016ish I think that showed between 13-25% of drivers in East London alone are uninsured and unlicensed to drive. That's in a city that ranks highly worldwide for the amount of CCTV it has watching its roads. Personally, I stick to the Highway Code when driving or cycling my bike for self preservation. I want to be predictable and obvious to others. It "ain't the bear you see what gets ya" as they say.
twic 5y ago
Some do, some don't. But so do drivers [1]: > In 2020, under free-flowing traffic conditions, 56% of cars exceeded the speed limit on 30mph roads compared to 53% on motorways and 12% on national speed limit single carriageway roads. And that's just speeding. Drivers are constantly breaking the highway code in other ways. If you notice cyclists doing it, but not drivers, that's because you've dehumanised cyclists. [1] https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/vehicle-speed-compliance-statistics-for-great-britain-2020/vehicle-speed-compliance-statistics-for-great-britain-2020 https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/vehicle-speed-compl...
- maffydub 5y ago
  > If you notice cyclists doing it, but not drivers, that's because you've dehumanised cyclists. Whoa! That's a pretty big accusation! I think you might want to rethink. I do see drivers running red lights, but it's almost always a close-run thing - maybe it's arguable that they couldn't have braked in time - it's hard to say (not a driver). There is a deliberate (short) pause between traffic lights going red and the green man pedestrian signal to show to allow for this. However it is, in my experience, common for cyclists to go through lights even after the green man is showing for pedestrians. ...and while I'm sure it's true that drivers often speed (and I definitely done condone that), I guess it's hard for me as a pedestrian to tell the difference between a car travelling at 30mph and say 40mph?
NoboruWataya 5y ago
Exactly right. Focusing on motorists conveniently ignores that many pedestrians also resent cyclists, because they routinely break the rules of the road. I've had a number of near misses with cyclists barrelling through red lights at speed.
phendrenad2 5y ago
I see this said a lot when cyclists come up. Have you ever seen a cyclist cause inconvenience to vehicles because they ran a red light? Or is it just a sense of "How dare you do something I can't"?
- maffydub 5y ago
  I'm not really watching for them inconveniencing vehicles, but I have (as a pedestrian) had to stop or move out if the way to avoid being hit (despite having right of way). (As I say, I don't drive or cycle, so it's not a case of "doing something I can't".)
II2II 5y ago
> it is very common to see cyclists running red lights This must be a cultural thing. I have seen two cyclists run red lights where I live in the past decade. I see motorists do the same thing every day. > or cycling the wrong way down one-way streets. I regularly see this happening on a quiet residential street. It's annoying, yet motorists also do the same. While this is a mistake in some cases, it is difficult to see how local residents doing so on a regular basis is a mistake. It also doesn't explain the people who zip along the road in reverse. (By that I mean they are moving in the wrong direction, but at least the car is facing the right way!) If registration had anything to do with safety, roads would be much safer places. Motor vehicles are already registered, yet people are frequently maimed or killed due to unsafe driving. Some motorists feel free to harass or intentionally endanger the lives of cyclists. Yet police rarely do anything unless someone ends up in a hospital or a morgue. Why should we expect it to be any different for cyclists? If there is an expectation that it will change the behaviour of cyclists, wouldn't the double standard over enforcement reflect a form of harassment? I am not claiming that cyclists are perfect. Far from it. They are people just as motorists are. They have their bad days. There are also some who refuse to respect the traffic regulations. But at the end of the day I consider the failure to reflect upon the dangers posed by far more dangerous motor vehicles and a desire to focus upon bicycles as ignorant, arrogant, or deliberate acts of malice.
- maffydub 5y ago
  > This must be a cultural thing. I have seen two cyclists run red lights where I live in the past decade. I see motorists do the same thing every day. Fair enough. I only have my own experience to go on. Since writing my original comment and this one, I walked to the supermarket and back. I saw no cars run red lights but 4 cyclists do it (out of 5). > There are also some who refuse to respect the traffic regulations. This was the point I was making - specifically that the "some" cyclists who don't follow the rules (at least in ways that put me as a pedestrian at risk) is in my experience significantly more than the number of drivers. > But at the end of the day I consider the failure to reflect upon the dangers posed by far more dangerous motor vehicles and a desire to focus upon bicycles as ignorant, arrogant, or deliberate acts of malice. OK, so let's assume that my observation that cyclists break the rules more frequently is based on an "ignorant, arrogant or deliberate [act] of malice" on my part. Why do you think I would feel that way? I neither drive nor cycle, so it's not like I'm in the drivers' camp, bashing cyclists.

ndsipa_pomu 5y ago

I think that cyclists running red lights is a symptom that most crossings and junctions are designed primarily for motor vehicles. Some countries modify traffic laws for cyclists such as the Idaho Stop and Paris has also made changes so that red lights can be treated as Give Way/Yield. However that does not excuse cyclists that endanger pedestrians. One-way streets are also seldom designed to take into account cyclists and again, they're designed for large motor vehicles. Here in the UK, there are lots of one-way streets that have a specific cycle lane to go the wrong way, but it's a lottery as to whether local councils have bothered to examine the one-ways.

unglaublich 5y ago

", but". That's because that highway code was designed for huge and heavy cars that need lots of time and space to come to a stop and that pose a danger for other road users. Not for agile and light cyclists. The rules just do not make a lot of sense for cyclists. E.g., in the Netherlands there are traffic lights for cyclists. They turn green for all 4 directions simultaneously, for only a few seconds. That's enough to have tens, sometimes hundreds of cyclists cross a road, WITHOUT any collision or danger. Cars are just too big and heavy for most urban areas. They belong on _highways_ indeed.

maffydub 5y ago
I'd be happy with the Highway Code being updated, or with other provision being made for cyclists, but it sounds like you're suggesting cyclists should just ignore the rules? The trouble with that is that by not following the rules, it's harder for other road users (in particular pedestrians) to predict what they're going to do. Even though bikes are much lighter than cars, I'd prefer not to be hot by either!

laputan_machine 5y ago

Many one-way / no-entry streets in Manchester specifically have ("except cycles") on them, not sure about London. E.g. https://www.google.com/maps/@53.4423463,-2.190167,3a,75y,71.77h,77.5t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sGe0_n-zzbwNAXznWKpS8Vg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DGe0_n-zzbwNAXznWKpS8Vg%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D97.58948%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192 https://www.google.com/maps/@53.4423463,-2.190167,3a,75y,71....

Lio 5y ago

I don't think registration would make a blind bit of difference to be honest, based on driver behaviour. I remember a Churchill Insurance report from 2016ish I think that showed between 13-25% of drivers in East London alone are uninsured and unlicensed to drive. That's in a city that ranks highly worldwide for the amount of CCTV it has watching its roads. Personally, I stick to the Highway Code when driving or cycling my bike for self preservation. I want to be predictable and obvious to others. It "ain't the bear you see what gets ya" as they say.

twic 5y ago

Some do, some don't. But so do drivers [1]: > In 2020, under free-flowing traffic conditions, 56% of cars exceeded the speed limit on 30mph roads compared to 53% on motorways and 12% on national speed limit single carriageway roads. And that's just speeding. Drivers are constantly breaking the highway code in other ways. If you notice cyclists doing it, but not drivers, that's because you've dehumanised cyclists. [1] https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/vehicle-speed-compliance-statistics-for-great-britain-2020/vehicle-speed-compliance-statistics-for-great-britain-2020 https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/vehicle-speed-compl...

maffydub 5y ago
> If you notice cyclists doing it, but not drivers, that's because you've dehumanised cyclists. Whoa! That's a pretty big accusation! I think you might want to rethink. I do see drivers running red lights, but it's almost always a close-run thing - maybe it's arguable that they couldn't have braked in time - it's hard to say (not a driver). There is a deliberate (short) pause between traffic lights going red and the green man pedestrian signal to show to allow for this. However it is, in my experience, common for cyclists to go through lights even after the green man is showing for pedestrians. ...and while I'm sure it's true that drivers often speed (and I definitely done condone that), I guess it's hard for me as a pedestrian to tell the difference between a car travelling at 30mph and say 40mph?

NoboruWataya 5y ago

Exactly right. Focusing on motorists conveniently ignores that many pedestrians also resent cyclists, because they routinely break the rules of the road. I've had a number of near misses with cyclists barrelling through red lights at speed.

phendrenad2 5y ago

I see this said a lot when cyclists come up. Have you ever seen a cyclist cause inconvenience to vehicles because they ran a red light? Or is it just a sense of "How dare you do something I can't"?

maffydub 5y ago
I'm not really watching for them inconveniencing vehicles, but I have (as a pedestrian) had to stop or move out if the way to avoid being hit (despite having right of way). (As I say, I don't drive or cycle, so it's not a case of "doing something I can't".)

II2II 5y ago

> it is very common to see cyclists running red lights This must be a cultural thing. I have seen two cyclists run red lights where I live in the past decade. I see motorists do the same thing every day. > or cycling the wrong way down one-way streets. I regularly see this happening on a quiet residential street. It's annoying, yet motorists also do the same. While this is a mistake in some cases, it is difficult to see how local residents doing so on a regular basis is a mistake. It also doesn't explain the people who zip along the road in reverse. (By that I mean they are moving in the wrong direction, but at least the car is facing the right way!) If registration had anything to do with safety, roads would be much safer places. Motor vehicles are already registered, yet people are frequently maimed or killed due to unsafe driving. Some motorists feel free to harass or intentionally endanger the lives of cyclists. Yet police rarely do anything unless someone ends up in a hospital or a morgue. Why should we expect it to be any different for cyclists? If there is an expectation that it will change the behaviour of cyclists, wouldn't the double standard over enforcement reflect a form of harassment? I am not claiming that cyclists are perfect. Far from it. They are people just as motorists are. They have their bad days. There are also some who refuse to respect the traffic regulations. But at the end of the day I consider the failure to reflect upon the dangers posed by far more dangerous motor vehicles and a desire to focus upon bicycles as ignorant, arrogant, or deliberate acts of malice.

maffydub 5y ago
> This must be a cultural thing. I have seen two cyclists run red lights where I live in the past decade. I see motorists do the same thing every day. Fair enough. I only have my own experience to go on. Since writing my original comment and this one, I walked to the supermarket and back. I saw no cars run red lights but 4 cyclists do it (out of 5). > There are also some who refuse to respect the traffic regulations. This was the point I was making - specifically that the "some" cyclists who don't follow the rules (at least in ways that put me as a pedestrian at risk) is in my experience significantly more than the number of drivers. > But at the end of the day I consider the failure to reflect upon the dangers posed by far more dangerous motor vehicles and a desire to focus upon bicycles as ignorant, arrogant, or deliberate acts of malice. OK, so let's assume that my observation that cyclists break the rules more frequently is based on an "ignorant, arrogant or deliberate [act] of malice" on my part. Why do you think I would feel that way? I neither drive nor cycle, so it's not like I'm in the drivers' camp, bashing cyclists.