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> especially [a code base] as shit as Kubernetes I completely agree that Kubernetes is best understood through the lens of Google's corporate interests. But 1.

by tombh 5y ago

> especially [a code base] as shit as Kubernetes I completely agree that Kubernetes is best understood through the lens of Google's corporate interests. But 1. resorting to language like "shit" makes me question the writer's credentials and reliability and 2. the code base may not be exemplary but its quality is far from belonging to the poorer end of the known spectrum.

politelemon 5y ago
"Shit" is so commonly used in developer/tech circles that I'm more surprised someone would zero in and take issue with it. I would not question their credentials and reliability over a word.
- jobegrabber 5y ago
  > I would not question their credentials and reliability over a word In more or less informal discussions, I agree. From my POV it's not about a singular word though, it's about the context: The author labelled the (entire) code base of Kubernetes as "shit": >[...] forking a large code base, especially one as shit as Kubernetes, and still getting community support can be daunting without some sort of titanic change in the market. It's not that it's not "nice" language, it's about the statement. It could very well be that the code base of Kubernetes is in a bad state, but with this wording and without any references, it doesn't come off as neutral or particularly reasonable.
hughrr 5y ago
Agree with this. I've had to delve into the guts of Kubernetes and it's not perfect for sure but far better than the crap we deploy onto it :)
arianvanp 5y ago
Given that contributors have been referring to the kubernetes codebase as "the clusterfuck" in talks I think it's fine to say "shit". https://archive.fosdem.org/2019/schedule/event/kubernetesclusterfuck/ https://archive.fosdem.org/2019/schedule/event/kubernetesclu... It's a great talk to figure out how the kubernetes codebase works
- tombh 5y ago
  Hmm yes, but when Kris Nova says it it's different
  - riccardomc 5y ago
    Why? Our field is plagued by Authority Bias and this is one fine example. “You should, in science, believe logic and arguments, carefully drawn, and not authorities.” [1] [1] https://twitter.com/anammostarac/status/1495594139865731074 https://twitter.com/anammostarac/status/1495594139865731074
    - tombh 5y ago
      But that's exactly my point, Kris carefully draws her arguments. Which is what gives her her authority, not the other way around.
      - jasonrichardsmi 5y ago
        Thanks for the response. I knew of this talk, and had delved into the code base years ago. I did not want to deal with that specific issue in the article because it diverted from the main discussion. My assumption this was a known aspect of the code base, from that talk to the security review Kubernetes received. Obviously it not a known, when I roll out an update to the webpage I will link to that fosdem talk.
        jobegrabber 5y ago
        Even then there's arguably a stark contrast between >The clusterfuck hidden in the Kubernetes code base and the brilliant refactoring techniques developed to fix it and saying >[...] forking a large code base, especially one as shit as Kubernetes, and still getting community support can be daunting without some sort of titanic change in the market. especially since the former talks about techniques that fixed the "clusterfuck". I know you didn't bring that talk into the discussion, however you didn't cite any sources at all. From my POV simply stating that the Kubernetes code base is "shit" without extending on it comes off as anything but neutral and fair. If you want to sound reasonable, I would either make clear that that sentiment is your personal opinion and/or comes from your experience, or at least cite some sources.

by tombh 5y ago

politelemon 5y ago

"Shit" is so commonly used in developer/tech circles that I'm more surprised someone would zero in and take issue with it. I would not question their credentials and reliability over a word.

jobegrabber 5y ago
> I would not question their credentials and reliability over a word In more or less informal discussions, I agree. From my POV it's not about a singular word though, it's about the context: The author labelled the (entire) code base of Kubernetes as "shit": >[...] forking a large code base, especially one as shit as Kubernetes, and still getting community support can be daunting without some sort of titanic change in the market. It's not that it's not "nice" language, it's about the statement. It could very well be that the code base of Kubernetes is in a bad state, but with this wording and without any references, it doesn't come off as neutral or particularly reasonable.

hughrr 5y ago

Agree with this. I've had to delve into the guts of Kubernetes and it's not perfect for sure but far better than the crap we deploy onto it :)

arianvanp 5y ago

Given that contributors have been referring to the kubernetes codebase as "the clusterfuck" in talks I think it's fine to say "shit". https://archive.fosdem.org/2019/schedule/event/kubernetesclusterfuck/ https://archive.fosdem.org/2019/schedule/event/kubernetesclu... It's a great talk to figure out how the kubernetes codebase works

tombh 5y ago
Hmm yes, but when Kris Nova says it it's different
- riccardomc 5y ago
  Why? Our field is plagued by Authority Bias and this is one fine example. “You should, in science, believe logic and arguments, carefully drawn, and not authorities.” [1] [1] https://twitter.com/anammostarac/status/1495594139865731074 https://twitter.com/anammostarac/status/1495594139865731074
  - tombh 5y ago
    But that's exactly my point, Kris carefully draws her arguments. Which is what gives her her authority, not the other way around.
    - jasonrichardsmi 5y ago
      Thanks for the response. I knew of this talk, and had delved into the code base years ago. I did not want to deal with that specific issue in the article because it diverted from the main discussion. My assumption this was a known aspect of the code base, from that talk to the security review Kubernetes received. Obviously it not a known, when I roll out an update to the webpage I will link to that fosdem talk.
      - jobegrabber 5y ago
        Even then there's arguably a stark contrast between >The clusterfuck hidden in the Kubernetes code base and the brilliant refactoring techniques developed to fix it and saying >[...] forking a large code base, especially one as shit as Kubernetes, and still getting community support can be daunting without some sort of titanic change in the market. especially since the former talks about techniques that fixed the "clusterfuck". I know you didn't bring that talk into the discussion, however you didn't cite any sources at all. From my POV simply stating that the Kubernetes code base is "shit" without extending on it comes off as anything but neutral and fair. If you want to sound reasonable, I would either make clear that that sentiment is your personal opinion and/or comes from your experience, or at least cite some sources.