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Airbnb has been very human hostile since the beginning. The first time I had to create an account, they required that I connect with a google account with acce

Airbnb has been very human hostile since the beginning. The first time I had to create an account, they required that I connect with a google account with access to all my contacts. Then ask me to make a video of myself. I didn't create the account and booked an hotel. Now they are less aggressive with their new procedures, but still, you can see that the people behind it see technical solutions way before they perceive the human impact. My grand-father was like that. A brilliant engineer from the most elite school of his generation in France. He once told me very seriously a solution for making more accommodations for the poorest people would be to remove individual bathrooms, and create common ones for the whole building instead. Airbnb tech teams remind me of him.

jb1991 5y ago
I’ve been so turned off by the entire concept of AirBnB, ever since their practices ruined several cities I love with massive overtourism influence. Like so many tech companies, the influence has just gotten completely out of control in the modern world on a global scale.
- imiric 5y ago
  Why would Airbnb be to blame for this? They're providing a market that fulfills demand for low cost or privately owned accommodations, competing directly with the established hotel industry. Not everyone wants or needs to stay in a hotel, and many people prefer the tourist experience facilitated by local hosts. Long-term rentals are also a convenient way to experience a location that doesn't involve complicated paperwork. Airbnb is not the problem. You're bothered by tourists.
  - lambic 5y ago
    I have a friend who owns a condo in a building downtown that is almost empty of owner occupiers. The vast majority of the condos are rented out as airbnbs. She has no regular neighbours and most of the people she sees in the building are strangers. When it reaches that level, it is a problem.
    - jb1991 5y ago
      It's a similar problem in neighborhoods that were not designed to be the center of tourism, no hotels, and homeowners had no intention of living next to "hotels", but if just a couple houses become full-time AirBnB all year, that is what happens -- everyone is now living next to hotels, and that spits in the face of neighborhood and those who chose to live there.
  - jb1991 5y ago
    > Why would Airbnb be to blame for this? Because they have pushed back hard on cities’ attempts to regulate and enforce what is happening due to the influence of their service. They have no respect for what is happening in some places and how residents are impacted. Your argument is similar to saying that Facebook is not to blame for the spread of misinformation. Tech platforms create a new world and then want nothing to do with the consequences of their influence. It is arrogant and irresponsible.
    - imiric 5y ago
      But it really is up to governments to enforce regulations. Companies have no choice but to ultimately comply if they want to keep operating in those locations. E.g. see Uber. This is not similar to Facebook, since "overtourism" is not as obviously harmful as misinformation. How would you even define it? It could be argued that it's another aspect of globalization which benefits the local economy, the travel industry and mixing of cultures.
    - jakupovic 5y ago
      Your argument is: "we should ban sales of milk because people pollute with used containers".
      - psd1 5y ago
        Only in the context of being knee-deep in milk cartons.
      - jb1991 5y ago
        Your proposed metaphor ignores the crucial question of degree, and thus fails.
        jakupovic 5y ago
        My metaphor works but you don't like it * *edited
        5y ago
  - dorchadas 5y ago
    They're providing this market by removing housing from the local people, which drives them out and drives up prices for those who stay. This, in turn, forces all the inhabitants of a city out of it, thus ruining the character those inhabitants gave it. All so some tourist can 'live like a local', at the expense of the actual locals being able to live like a local. And it's wholeheartedly AirBnB's fault and problem. Not to mention there's often new apartment blocks being built to act as de-facto hotels but having none of the regulations in place, which isn't quite competition at all. Basically, tourists aren't locals, they should have a right to live like locals. Especially at the expense of the locals.
    - imiric 5y ago
      At a large enough scale, I agree that there's an impact to locals. But don't tourists also boost the local economy, the travel industry and introduce different cultures themselves? It's not such a clear case that this is all negative. The lack of regulations is an issue of local governments not catching up to tech companies, as usual, not Airbnb's. > Basically, tourists aren't locals, they should have a right to live like locals. What if those tourists do eventually become locals after staying at an Airbnb? Are you against migrants as well? > Especially at the expense of the locals. The locals do benefit financially from tourism. Markets like Airbnb's simply accelerate this, which of course introduces issues, but governments should carry more of the blame for this than a company that disrupts the hotel industry.
      - dorchadas 5y ago
        > At a large enough scale, I agree that there's an impact to locals. But don't tourists also boost the local economy, the travel industry and introduce different cultures themselves? It's not such a clear case that this is all negative. And tourism is planned into this with the way zoning permits work. But AirBnB skirts those rules. Also the negatives of losing housing in a city far outweigh any financial benefit that could come to it, especially as most won't be reaped by the people that are being forced out...or it will be taken from them in terms of increased rent because the supply is much smaller. > The lack of regulations is an issue of local governments not catching up to tech companies, as usual, not Airbnb. Or it's because AirBnB actively lobbies against it and refuses to enforce rules, saying it's up to the individual providers. They facilitate it, and often most things on AirBnB are illegal and against the zoning laws of whatever building they're being used for. > What if those tourists do eventually become locals after staying at an Airbnb? Are you against migrants as well? What a ridiculous question. Obviously I'm not against migrants. I'm against tourists thinking they have a right to live like locals. > The locals do benefit financially from tourism. Markets like Airbnb's simply accelerate this, which of course introduces issues, but governments should carry more of the blame for this than a company that disrupts the hotel industry. > The locals do benefit financially from tourism. Markets like Airbnb's simply accelerate this, which of course introduces issues, but governments should carry more of the blame for this than a company that disrupts the hotel industry. The locals benefit nothing from AirBnB. The landlords do, sure, but the actual residents and regular workers do not. If anything, it makes matters worse as rents are driven up, or they have to move further away from work. In the worst case scenarios, the town just becomes tourist-oriented and there's no other jobs left. That's a horrible thing as if the tourism ever dries up, the town is left up the creek. But also tell the locals they benefit financially when their local bar closed down because the landlord thought it'd be better to make it a shop that caters towards tourists; or when all their neighbors move out because of the rambunctious drunken tourists coming in at 2 every night of the week; or when their landlord decides to evict them/up their rent because the landlord knows they can make more on AirBnB than renting to residences. It's a wholly negative impact to everyone except those people who own the AirBnBs, who are often skirting multiple regulations, facilitated by AirBnB itself. It is a net negative for the city, and I know personally that housing crisis in at least one country (Ireland) has been facilitated by it, as the amount of houses on the market in Dublin doubled during the pandemic when tourism was shut down.
  - hiharryhere 5y ago
    Residents have a say in how their city functions. A well run city balances the needs of its constituents - schools, access to shops, bus routes, community centres, parks, parking etc. It also balances the need of business, tourism operators, hospitality etc. None of that works when an operator like Airbnb ignores it all. Nimby’s give community consultation a bad name, but the alternative is the Wild West. No thanks.
    - nickpp 5y ago
      So, basically, Not In My Backyard, no?
      - throwaway2037 5y ago
        No, I think OP is advocating for a more balanced, community-oriented approach. The the moment AirBnB is a free-for-all, where externalities are unfairly borne by the local community. A better way would be to design a community-oriented system of rules that are applied when an owner wants to rent. For example, in this neighborhood, we allow up to X00 units to be rented during this quarter. It may change next quarter. (Or some regular period.) My point: Start small... let it grow, and allow for continuous community feedback. Another way to interpret your comment, would be to replay the OP but substitue... hmm... oil/chemical refinery next to your house. Then how does it feel if random Internet stranger replies to your post: "So, basically, Not In My Backyard, no?" It sounds low empathy. My point: There are plenty of stories on HN/Twitter/Internet about living next door to a nitemare AirBnB rental that hosts loud drunken parties each weekend.
        seattle_spring 5y ago
        Where exactly is Airbnb a “free-for-all” nowadays? Every municipality I can think of where it might affect housing prices has very onerous regulations on STRs.
- drstewart 5y ago
  Exactly. Look at Venice, which was a quaint little town nobody had ever heard of until Airbnb came long. As you correctly point out, without Airbnb excessive tourism wouldn't exist. It's so nice that I've been able to find a single villain to blame this problem on instead of talking about the broader housing crisis that leads to this, which is completely the fault of governments to address housing shortages due to influence from NIMBYs and corporations. As further proof you're correct, look at Miami Beach. It's banned Airbnbs and short term rentals, and now housing there is incredibly affordable and not the most expensive in Florida.
  - imiric 5y ago
    > Look at Venice, which was a quaint little town nobody had ever heard of until Airbnb came long. Venice, Italy? Arguably the most popular tourist destination in Italy for... decades? Centuries? Airbnb might've exploded this popularity, but Venice has always been Italy's Disneyland. > look at Miami Beach. It's banned Airbnbs and short term rentals, and now housing there is incredibly affordable and not the most expensive in Florida. Drastic measure aside, which has surely plummeted profits from tourism, are you sure the drop in real estate prices has nothing to do with the fact most parts of Florida's coastline will be underwater within the next few decades[1]? [1]: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/miami-is-the-most-vulnerable-coastal-city-worldwide/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/miami-is-the-most...
    - drstewart 5y ago
      I was being ironic on both counts: Venice was overcrowded long before Airbnb, and Miami Beach is incredibly expensive despite Airbnb. The point is there are systemic issues of housing shortages - Airbnb is at best a manifestation of these symptoms, not a cause.
      - imiric 5y ago
        Gotcha. I invoke Poe's law :)
cambaceres 5y ago
Sorry for sounding like a cynical right-winger but I'm sure people prefer to share toilets with other people instead of sleeping in the streets. In my country there are very regid regulations on what standard apartments has to fulfill, which has the consequence that not enough apartments are built that can be afforded by poor people.
- nisegami 5y ago
  I've long since suspected that a small part of the housing crises in the developed world is due to the high minimum standards for apartments and housing.
  - CraneWorm 5y ago
    It's not, it's due to greed and people (and corporations) living of rent.
    - sacrosancty 5y ago
      Why do people keep ascribing high housing costs to some nebulous "greed"? Isn't all economic activity due to greed? Anyone trying to choose a lower priced thing to buy or trying to get paid a higher wage is also doing it because of greed. The parent is right. Shanty towns are the extreme low-regulation end of housing and they're also extremely cheap. It's a matter of how bad we want to allow people to treat themselves and our standards for safety and comfort keep going up so cost does too.
  - nickpp 5y ago
    Small?! Supply side is completely f-ed in real estate by red tape and regulations on building. It's the main reason we have such housing costs across the developed world.
- IMSAI8080 5y ago
  Having a bathroom shared between many strangers is exceptionally annoying. You have to queue for your turn to use the shower. If someone spends ages in their, well bad luck you're going to be late for work or no shower for you. Many people these days choose not to share a single bathroom even between family members, never mind trying to negotiate with your co-residents. Then how is this shared bathroom cleaned and by who and to what standard? What if one of your neighbours refuses to do the work? Bad luck for you. The $500 cost of a shower unit and toilet isn't what makes housing unavailable to the poor. Housing standards are a good thing as accommodation quality regresses to the minimum allowed by law.
Grustaf 5y ago
What's wrong with sharing bathrooms? That's a dorm, or a youth hostel for that matter. It's totally fine. Pretty common all over the world, not just for the poorest.
- sol_invictus 5y ago
  Because some people (as in, a vast majority of the global population) live their lives in a low-income bracket and one could consider it a very unpleasant thought to live your entire life sharing bathrooms with strangers.
  - cambaceres 5y ago
    The grandfathers point was that shared bathrooms would decrease costs of building new apartments, which is good for poor people with less income. Needing to share a bathroom with someone is no problem compared to not having a place to stay.
    - vidarh 5y ago
      So would sleeping halls. Both models exists, yet in the developed world we tend to see either as a worst case crisis accommodation not as a viable alternative for long term accommodation. So yes, it solves problems in those places where lack of any accommodation is a big housing problem. That is important, but it affects a relatively small proportion even of the homeless (most homeless are not "rough sleepers" who end up sleeping outdoors, but people who bounce between temporary housing exactly or crash with people; e.g. in the UK rough sleepers seem to make up in the region of 5%-10% of homeless people). It may vary by location, but at least in the UK, for most homeless and poor, the problem is not that they have nowhere to sleep, but that they have the kind of substandard accommodation that people in this thread seems to think will solve their problems, and that they lack security - e.g their accommodation is temporary etc. because even this kind of substandard accommodation is not easily accessible to them in ways they can afford.
      - Grustaf 5y ago
stavros 5y ago
I don't understand the grandfather bit. Wasn't he right? Makes sense to me that a shared bathroom would decrease the cost, and I've lived in an apartment like that and it was fine.

jb1991 5y ago

I’ve been so turned off by the entire concept of AirBnB, ever since their practices ruined several cities I love with massive overtourism influence. Like so many tech companies, the influence has just gotten completely out of control in the modern world on a global scale.

imiric 5y ago
Why would Airbnb be to blame for this? They're providing a market that fulfills demand for low cost or privately owned accommodations, competing directly with the established hotel industry. Not everyone wants or needs to stay in a hotel, and many people prefer the tourist experience facilitated by local hosts. Long-term rentals are also a convenient way to experience a location that doesn't involve complicated paperwork. Airbnb is not the problem. You're bothered by tourists.
- lambic 5y ago
  I have a friend who owns a condo in a building downtown that is almost empty of owner occupiers. The vast majority of the condos are rented out as airbnbs. She has no regular neighbours and most of the people she sees in the building are strangers. When it reaches that level, it is a problem.
  - jb1991 5y ago
    It's a similar problem in neighborhoods that were not designed to be the center of tourism, no hotels, and homeowners had no intention of living next to "hotels", but if just a couple houses become full-time AirBnB all year, that is what happens -- everyone is now living next to hotels, and that spits in the face of neighborhood and those who chose to live there.
- jb1991 5y ago
  > Why would Airbnb be to blame for this? Because they have pushed back hard on cities’ attempts to regulate and enforce what is happening due to the influence of their service. They have no respect for what is happening in some places and how residents are impacted. Your argument is similar to saying that Facebook is not to blame for the spread of misinformation. Tech platforms create a new world and then want nothing to do with the consequences of their influence. It is arrogant and irresponsible.
  - imiric 5y ago
    But it really is up to governments to enforce regulations. Companies have no choice but to ultimately comply if they want to keep operating in those locations. E.g. see Uber. This is not similar to Facebook, since "overtourism" is not as obviously harmful as misinformation. How would you even define it? It could be argued that it's another aspect of globalization which benefits the local economy, the travel industry and mixing of cultures.
  - jakupovic 5y ago
    Your argument is: "we should ban sales of milk because people pollute with used containers".
    - psd1 5y ago
      Only in the context of being knee-deep in milk cartons.
    - jb1991 5y ago
      Your proposed metaphor ignores the crucial question of degree, and thus fails.
      - jakupovic 5y ago
        My metaphor works but you don't like it * *edited
        5y ago
- dorchadas 5y ago
  They're providing this market by removing housing from the local people, which drives them out and drives up prices for those who stay. This, in turn, forces all the inhabitants of a city out of it, thus ruining the character those inhabitants gave it. All so some tourist can 'live like a local', at the expense of the actual locals being able to live like a local. And it's wholeheartedly AirBnB's fault and problem. Not to mention there's often new apartment blocks being built to act as de-facto hotels but having none of the regulations in place, which isn't quite competition at all. Basically, tourists aren't locals, they should have a right to live like locals. Especially at the expense of the locals.
  - imiric 5y ago
    At a large enough scale, I agree that there's an impact to locals. But don't tourists also boost the local economy, the travel industry and introduce different cultures themselves? It's not such a clear case that this is all negative. The lack of regulations is an issue of local governments not catching up to tech companies, as usual, not Airbnb's. > Basically, tourists aren't locals, they should have a right to live like locals. What if those tourists do eventually become locals after staying at an Airbnb? Are you against migrants as well? > Especially at the expense of the locals. The locals do benefit financially from tourism. Markets like Airbnb's simply accelerate this, which of course introduces issues, but governments should carry more of the blame for this than a company that disrupts the hotel industry.
    - dorchadas 5y ago
      > At a large enough scale, I agree that there's an impact to locals. But don't tourists also boost the local economy, the travel industry and introduce different cultures themselves? It's not such a clear case that this is all negative. And tourism is planned into this with the way zoning permits work. But AirBnB skirts those rules. Also the negatives of losing housing in a city far outweigh any financial benefit that could come to it, especially as most won't be reaped by the people that are being forced out...or it will be taken from them in terms of increased rent because the supply is much smaller. > The lack of regulations is an issue of local governments not catching up to tech companies, as usual, not Airbnb. Or it's because AirBnB actively lobbies against it and refuses to enforce rules, saying it's up to the individual providers. They facilitate it, and often most things on AirBnB are illegal and against the zoning laws of whatever building they're being used for. > What if those tourists do eventually become locals after staying at an Airbnb? Are you against migrants as well? What a ridiculous question. Obviously I'm not against migrants. I'm against tourists thinking they have a right to live like locals. > The locals do benefit financially from tourism. Markets like Airbnb's simply accelerate this, which of course introduces issues, but governments should carry more of the blame for this than a company that disrupts the hotel industry. > The locals do benefit financially from tourism. Markets like Airbnb's simply accelerate this, which of course introduces issues, but governments should carry more of the blame for this than a company that disrupts the hotel industry. The locals benefit nothing from AirBnB. The landlords do, sure, but the actual residents and regular workers do not. If anything, it makes matters worse as rents are driven up, or they have to move further away from work. In the worst case scenarios, the town just becomes tourist-oriented and there's no other jobs left. That's a horrible thing as if the tourism ever dries up, the town is left up the creek. But also tell the locals they benefit financially when their local bar closed down because the landlord thought it'd be better to make it a shop that caters towards tourists; or when all their neighbors move out because of the rambunctious drunken tourists coming in at 2 every night of the week; or when their landlord decides to evict them/up their rent because the landlord knows they can make more on AirBnB than renting to residences. It's a wholly negative impact to everyone except those people who own the AirBnBs, who are often skirting multiple regulations, facilitated by AirBnB itself. It is a net negative for the city, and I know personally that housing crisis in at least one country (Ireland) has been facilitated by it, as the amount of houses on the market in Dublin doubled during the pandemic when tourism was shut down.
- hiharryhere 5y ago
  Residents have a say in how their city functions. A well run city balances the needs of its constituents - schools, access to shops, bus routes, community centres, parks, parking etc. It also balances the need of business, tourism operators, hospitality etc. None of that works when an operator like Airbnb ignores it all. Nimby’s give community consultation a bad name, but the alternative is the Wild West. No thanks.
  - nickpp 5y ago
    So, basically, Not In My Backyard, no?
    - throwaway2037 5y ago
      No, I think OP is advocating for a more balanced, community-oriented approach. The the moment AirBnB is a free-for-all, where externalities are unfairly borne by the local community. A better way would be to design a community-oriented system of rules that are applied when an owner wants to rent. For example, in this neighborhood, we allow up to X00 units to be rented during this quarter. It may change next quarter. (Or some regular period.) My point: Start small... let it grow, and allow for continuous community feedback. Another way to interpret your comment, would be to replay the OP but substitue... hmm... oil/chemical refinery next to your house. Then how does it feel if random Internet stranger replies to your post: "So, basically, Not In My Backyard, no?" It sounds low empathy. My point: There are plenty of stories on HN/Twitter/Internet about living next door to a nitemare AirBnB rental that hosts loud drunken parties each weekend.
      - seattle_spring 5y ago
        Where exactly is Airbnb a “free-for-all” nowadays? Every municipality I can think of where it might affect housing prices has very onerous regulations on STRs.
drstewart 5y ago
Exactly. Look at Venice, which was a quaint little town nobody had ever heard of until Airbnb came long. As you correctly point out, without Airbnb excessive tourism wouldn't exist. It's so nice that I've been able to find a single villain to blame this problem on instead of talking about the broader housing crisis that leads to this, which is completely the fault of governments to address housing shortages due to influence from NIMBYs and corporations. As further proof you're correct, look at Miami Beach. It's banned Airbnbs and short term rentals, and now housing there is incredibly affordable and not the most expensive in Florida.
- imiric 5y ago
  > Look at Venice, which was a quaint little town nobody had ever heard of until Airbnb came long. Venice, Italy? Arguably the most popular tourist destination in Italy for... decades? Centuries? Airbnb might've exploded this popularity, but Venice has always been Italy's Disneyland. > look at Miami Beach. It's banned Airbnbs and short term rentals, and now housing there is incredibly affordable and not the most expensive in Florida. Drastic measure aside, which has surely plummeted profits from tourism, are you sure the drop in real estate prices has nothing to do with the fact most parts of Florida's coastline will be underwater within the next few decades[1]? [1]: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/miami-is-the-most-vulnerable-coastal-city-worldwide/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/miami-is-the-most...
  - drstewart 5y ago
    I was being ironic on both counts: Venice was overcrowded long before Airbnb, and Miami Beach is incredibly expensive despite Airbnb. The point is there are systemic issues of housing shortages - Airbnb is at best a manifestation of these symptoms, not a cause.
    - imiric 5y ago
      Gotcha. I invoke Poe's law :)

cambaceres 5y ago

Sorry for sounding like a cynical right-winger but I'm sure people prefer to share toilets with other people instead of sleeping in the streets. In my country there are very regid regulations on what standard apartments has to fulfill, which has the consequence that not enough apartments are built that can be afforded by poor people.

nisegami 5y ago
I've long since suspected that a small part of the housing crises in the developed world is due to the high minimum standards for apartments and housing.
- CraneWorm 5y ago
  It's not, it's due to greed and people (and corporations) living of rent.
  - sacrosancty 5y ago
    Why do people keep ascribing high housing costs to some nebulous "greed"? Isn't all economic activity due to greed? Anyone trying to choose a lower priced thing to buy or trying to get paid a higher wage is also doing it because of greed. The parent is right. Shanty towns are the extreme low-regulation end of housing and they're also extremely cheap. It's a matter of how bad we want to allow people to treat themselves and our standards for safety and comfort keep going up so cost does too.
- nickpp 5y ago
  Small?! Supply side is completely f-ed in real estate by red tape and regulations on building. It's the main reason we have such housing costs across the developed world.
IMSAI8080 5y ago
Having a bathroom shared between many strangers is exceptionally annoying. You have to queue for your turn to use the shower. If someone spends ages in their, well bad luck you're going to be late for work or no shower for you. Many people these days choose not to share a single bathroom even between family members, never mind trying to negotiate with your co-residents. Then how is this shared bathroom cleaned and by who and to what standard? What if one of your neighbours refuses to do the work? Bad luck for you. The $500 cost of a shower unit and toilet isn't what makes housing unavailable to the poor. Housing standards are a good thing as accommodation quality regresses to the minimum allowed by law.

Grustaf 5y ago

What's wrong with sharing bathrooms? That's a dorm, or a youth hostel for that matter. It's totally fine. Pretty common all over the world, not just for the poorest.

sol_invictus 5y ago
Because some people (as in, a vast majority of the global population) live their lives in a low-income bracket and one could consider it a very unpleasant thought to live your entire life sharing bathrooms with strangers.
- cambaceres 5y ago
  The grandfathers point was that shared bathrooms would decrease costs of building new apartments, which is good for poor people with less income. Needing to share a bathroom with someone is no problem compared to not having a place to stay.
  - vidarh 5y ago
    So would sleeping halls. Both models exists, yet in the developed world we tend to see either as a worst case crisis accommodation not as a viable alternative for long term accommodation. So yes, it solves problems in those places where lack of any accommodation is a big housing problem. That is important, but it affects a relatively small proportion even of the homeless (most homeless are not "rough sleepers" who end up sleeping outdoors, but people who bounce between temporary housing exactly or crash with people; e.g. in the UK rough sleepers seem to make up in the region of 5%-10% of homeless people). It may vary by location, but at least in the UK, for most homeless and poor, the problem is not that they have nowhere to sleep, but that they have the kind of substandard accommodation that people in this thread seems to think will solve their problems, and that they lack security - e.g their accommodation is temporary etc. because even this kind of substandard accommodation is not easily accessible to them in ways they can afford.
    - Grustaf 5y ago

stavros 5y ago

I don't understand the grandfather bit. Wasn't he right? Makes sense to me that a shared bathroom would decrease the cost, and I've lived in an apartment like that and it was fine.