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Depends on where you are in the world. the Netherlands, this doesn't apply. Cyclists might be dicks (especially in amsterdam) but everyone cycles. In the UK i

Depends on where you are in the world. the Netherlands, this doesn't apply. Cyclists might be dicks (especially in amsterdam) but everyone cycles. In the UK in the big cities, there tends to be lots of cycling. Adherence to the rules of red lights is lax amongst <15% of cyclist. However they are the obnoxious noisy shites whom everyone hates. (fellow cyclists included) Again, not subhuman, but classic dickheads. In the US(well NYC), from the time I lived there, cyclists are either raging hippies, or aggressive couriers. On the westcoast it was more of a lifestyle choice.

nicbou 5y ago
> but everyone cycles This is probably the key. A cyclist behind the wheel will usually show some consideration for other cyclists. Same for motorcyclists. Besides, there are just more cyclists in Europe in general. Drivers are used to seeing them, and driver training accounts for them. It's easy to hate the single cyclist on your commute, but when there are hundreds of them, you must accept their existence.
globular-toast 5y ago
If you cycle enough you'll know that often red lights are silly for bicycles. Bicycles shouldn't be treated like cars. They are better. In particular, smaller, more nimble and less dangerous. I'm a big fan of the "Idaho stop". Essentially it "downgrades" the meaning of stop signs and red lights for cyclists, turning a red light into a stop and a stop into a give way. It makes a lot of sense. Traffic lights and other complications are there because cars are dangerous. People using other modes shouldn't be forced to take the same responsibility as a car driver.
- foxfluff 5y ago
  Red lights are sometimes silly for cars too. And sometimes they are upgraded with sensors that make them automatically go green when you approach an empty intersection, making them a little less silly. They don't always work well; in my area some sensors seem to trigger too late, resulting in unnecessary braking, and others trigger too early and might encourage you to speed up for the intersection to avoid getting a yellow or even red just before you enter. Sometimes they give a green for the go-straight lane just when you're switching to the turn lane, which stays red even though there's no traffic.. One of my favorite solutions is simply turning the lights off altogether when there's not much traffic. They do that at quite a few intersections here.
  - Moru 5y ago
    In our town the trafic lights work perfectly. I seldom have to stop at anything that the first redlight, everything after that is in perfect flow as long as I keep on the straight path. Even left turn in empty crossings work fine, both left and straight goes green and when I enter the turn lane, the straight goes red and only the turn stays green. It's all about setting them up right. I'm so used to this since I started driving 30+ years ago so I get pretty surpriced when I visit people in Germany and stand in an empty crossing with a redlight. Or have to stop at every single redlight thrugh the whole town.
  - globular-toast 5y ago
    It's interesting how train drivers treat signals compared to car drivers. Train drivers treat them more as a way to regulate their speed. The idea is not to ever have to stop at a red light because you would have already regulated your speed such that it's not red by the time you get there. Car drivers see green and immediately speed up to whatever the speed limit is and end up maximising the amount of time spent waiting at the next red light.
    - foxfluff 5y ago
      The difficulty is that traffic lights are rather unpredictable. Some actually require you to speed up to the limit if you want to keep up with the wave. And others won't light up until you pass a sensor so coasting and regulating speed far ahead doesn't work. Others still may be triggered by sensors on crossing traffic, whether you get a green or red is unknowable. I'm guessing the signals on railways are much more predictable.
      - globular-toast 5y ago
        > I'm guessing the signals on railways are much more predictable. Possibly, but it's mostly just a better system which works because railway lines are linear. On British railways at least (not sure about around the world), each signal informs the driver about the current state of the next two signals. - Red (danger): absolutely do not enter the next piece of track (with serious consequences if breached), - Single yellow (caution): the next signal is red, - Double yellow (preliminary caution): the next signal is a single yellow, - Green (clear): next signal is double yellow or green. This way you can tell if you are catching up with the red and adjust speed accordingly (and I guess they would incorporate knowledge about the line, ie. if they know there is only one signal to the next station they wouldn't worry too much about a double orange). I think the "smart motorway" variable speed limits are an attempt to implement this on the road. Unfortunately a large number of people think the temporary speed restrictions cause congestion and others think smart motorway simply means no hard shoulder. You can't really treat current traffic signals like railways signals, but motorists would do well to learn to regulate their speed better and understand the concept of average speed.
- KaiserPro 5y ago
  > If you cycle enough you'll know that often red lights are silly for bicycles. I disagree. I have witnessed a large number of pedestrian collisions because fellow cyclists didn't want to stop. In london the large majority of traffic lights that "make no sense" are normally pedestrian crossings. This is why I stop at red lights, even though its more tiring. I had to administer first aid to someone who was knocked over on london bridge by a cyclist and was rendered unconscious. The sniveling little shit fucked off and left the man in the middle of the road. Yes Cyclists are smaller and more nimble, to a point. But that does not mean they are less dangerous to pedestrians. The rules are there for all road users, or not at all. In the UK at least they are there to protect the most vulnerable: pedestrians.
  - globular-toast 5y ago
    The Idaho Stop doesn't mean you blast through red. You stop. Then proceed through if it's safe. This would be about as dangerous as accidentally walking into someone on the pavement. There are idiots with no regard to others' safety everywhere, unfortunately. I'd rather they were riding bikes than driving cars. I'm not sure if pedestrians are more vulnerable than cyclists. Maybe marginally if the cyclist is wearing a helmet but they are both essentially as vulnerable as you can be.
    - KaiserPro 5y ago
      > The Idaho Stop doesn't mean you blast through red. You stop. Aha, this make much more sense! > Maybe marginally if the cyclist is wearing a helmet but they are both essentially as vulnerable as you can be. Its more the point of impact, the pedestrian gets hit by the handlebars which are small and pointy. The cyclist will normally get cushioned by the pedestrian. However I suspect that numbers and collisions are tightly coupled to country. the pavement layouts are different.
brnt 5y ago
Incidentally, Dutch law does not require helmets based on research that shows this 'dehumanizes' cyclists; car drivers take disproportionally more risk when they see helmets, assuming that they are safe.
- onlyrealcuzzo 5y ago
  My biggest cycling friend in the US convinced me not to where a helmet for this reason. Where I am - there's pretty good bike infrastructure - and I can get to and from work and anywhere else I bike on good separated but not completely protected bike paths. I'm assuming not wearing a helmet was proved to be good on an individual level? Does it mean you're less likely to get in an accident? When you get in an accident, are you also less likely to be severely injured? Also - are there any stats on how likely you are to be injured on different types of bike paths? Like just sharing the road vs separated paths vs protected paths?
  - Freak_NL 5y ago
    There are statistics for head injuries incurred riding a bicycle, but some find that these alone do not show the full effect of making a helmet mandatory. The Dutch Cyclists’ Union is particularly vocal about this¹. Their take is that creating a culture where wearing a helmet on a bicycle is normal has a significant negative effect on health in general and safety by raising the barrier of riding a bicycle. When you need a helmet, you have to lug it around even when you're just popping out for some groceries. The effects of mandatory helmets in neighbouring countries show that these have a non-negligible effect on participation, leading to fewer cyclists. For cyclists however, there is safety in numbers; motorists are more considerate of cyclists simply because they are everywhere and part of the normal roadscape². There is also the simple weighing of risks: head injuries are, comparatively, very rare. The energy devoted to making helmets mandatory are better spent in improving road safety by different means. For children the risk of head injury occurring is simply higher, which is why you will see many children wear helmets in the Netherlands until they reach their teens. 1: https://www.fietsersbond.nl/ons-werk/fietsers-en-veiligheid/fietshelmen/ https://www.fietsersbond.nl/ons-werk/fietsers-en-veiligheid/... 2: Almost exclusively low speed roads; up to 30 km/h within built-up areas, 60 km/h without. Faster roads tend to have separate cycleways near or parallel to them and prohibit cyclists from using the roads themselves.
Doctor_Fegg 5y ago
This is not a great take. You're generalising based on some half-formed observations. Of course US cyclists are not either "raging hippies or aggressive couriers". Next time someone riding a bike is in intensive care after being knocked down by a motorist I hope you have more sympathy than your comment would suggest.
- KaiserPro 5y ago
  I have not, and will not condone drivers that cause accidents because "ugh cyclists". I commute in london by cycle. I am also a driver. I expect both driver and cyclist to respect the rules and each other. I do not jump red lights, because that is not what one does. Over the last 5 years cycling has become much safer and less dangerous. The traffic is slower, and there is more segregation in central london. In the suburbs its not as rosy. I have not, and did not seek to justify the viewpoint expressed in the article, only to add my observations, which were clearly marked as personal opinions.
gadders 5y ago
Cycling in Belgium is different from cycling in the UK. From what I saw in Brugge, people just get on a bike to cycle to work, or the shops, on a regular sit up and beg type bike. They're just getting from place to place. They're not trying to set a new personal best. In the UK, it more tends to be packs of 10 or so middle aged men aggressively riding racing bikes delaying all the traffic for 100s of metres behind them.
- tonyedgecombe 5y ago
  - gadders 5y ago
    - llampx 5y ago
      So no one should jog or run on public roads either? No doing push-ups in a public park? Glad you're not the dictator of the world.
      - jseban 5y ago
        No people should not run on public roads, why would you do that? I've never ran on a public road. Parks are made for recreation, not transportation. You don't do pushups on a busy sidewalk where people are trying to walk
        llampx 5y ago
        s/road/sidewalk Of course there are places (many of them in the US) where a road or street exists but no sidewalk so you have to walk, bicycle or run on it.
      - FeepingCreature 5y ago
        Of course nobody should jog or run on a road.
ivvve 5y ago
What's more likely: millions (tens of millions?) of people are "dicks", "raging hippies", or "noisy shites", for no other reason than the mode of transport they choose, or you're lazily generalising to justify an extremely solipsistic world view? Very gracious of you to clarify they're "not subhuman" too, that definitely makes clear that you are making a balanced and thorough assessment. Thanks for your erudite contribution to this matter, the Nobel peace prize committee will be getting in touch shortly.
lamontcg 5y ago
> Adherence to the rules of red lights is lax amongst <15% of cyclist. Cars and trucks break rules all the time, but drivers don't get collectively punished with logic like "this is the driver that gives all drivers a bad name". The dehumanization of cyclists is precisely the reason why so many people are okay with the logic of collective punishment towards them. People don't do that with drivers because usually when they're observing the poor behavior of drivers they are driving themselves.

nicbou 5y ago

> but everyone cycles This is probably the key. A cyclist behind the wheel will usually show some consideration for other cyclists. Same for motorcyclists. Besides, there are just more cyclists in Europe in general. Drivers are used to seeing them, and driver training accounts for them. It's easy to hate the single cyclist on your commute, but when there are hundreds of them, you must accept their existence.

globular-toast 5y ago

If you cycle enough you'll know that often red lights are silly for bicycles. Bicycles shouldn't be treated like cars. They are better. In particular, smaller, more nimble and less dangerous. I'm a big fan of the "Idaho stop". Essentially it "downgrades" the meaning of stop signs and red lights for cyclists, turning a red light into a stop and a stop into a give way. It makes a lot of sense. Traffic lights and other complications are there because cars are dangerous. People using other modes shouldn't be forced to take the same responsibility as a car driver.

foxfluff 5y ago
Red lights are sometimes silly for cars too. And sometimes they are upgraded with sensors that make them automatically go green when you approach an empty intersection, making them a little less silly. They don't always work well; in my area some sensors seem to trigger too late, resulting in unnecessary braking, and others trigger too early and might encourage you to speed up for the intersection to avoid getting a yellow or even red just before you enter. Sometimes they give a green for the go-straight lane just when you're switching to the turn lane, which stays red even though there's no traffic.. One of my favorite solutions is simply turning the lights off altogether when there's not much traffic. They do that at quite a few intersections here.
- Moru 5y ago
  In our town the trafic lights work perfectly. I seldom have to stop at anything that the first redlight, everything after that is in perfect flow as long as I keep on the straight path. Even left turn in empty crossings work fine, both left and straight goes green and when I enter the turn lane, the straight goes red and only the turn stays green. It's all about setting them up right. I'm so used to this since I started driving 30+ years ago so I get pretty surpriced when I visit people in Germany and stand in an empty crossing with a redlight. Or have to stop at every single redlight thrugh the whole town.
- globular-toast 5y ago
  It's interesting how train drivers treat signals compared to car drivers. Train drivers treat them more as a way to regulate their speed. The idea is not to ever have to stop at a red light because you would have already regulated your speed such that it's not red by the time you get there. Car drivers see green and immediately speed up to whatever the speed limit is and end up maximising the amount of time spent waiting at the next red light.
  - foxfluff 5y ago
    The difficulty is that traffic lights are rather unpredictable. Some actually require you to speed up to the limit if you want to keep up with the wave. And others won't light up until you pass a sensor so coasting and regulating speed far ahead doesn't work. Others still may be triggered by sensors on crossing traffic, whether you get a green or red is unknowable. I'm guessing the signals on railways are much more predictable.
    - globular-toast 5y ago
      > I'm guessing the signals on railways are much more predictable. Possibly, but it's mostly just a better system which works because railway lines are linear. On British railways at least (not sure about around the world), each signal informs the driver about the current state of the next two signals. - Red (danger): absolutely do not enter the next piece of track (with serious consequences if breached), - Single yellow (caution): the next signal is red, - Double yellow (preliminary caution): the next signal is a single yellow, - Green (clear): next signal is double yellow or green. This way you can tell if you are catching up with the red and adjust speed accordingly (and I guess they would incorporate knowledge about the line, ie. if they know there is only one signal to the next station they wouldn't worry too much about a double orange). I think the "smart motorway" variable speed limits are an attempt to implement this on the road. Unfortunately a large number of people think the temporary speed restrictions cause congestion and others think smart motorway simply means no hard shoulder. You can't really treat current traffic signals like railways signals, but motorists would do well to learn to regulate their speed better and understand the concept of average speed.
KaiserPro 5y ago
> If you cycle enough you'll know that often red lights are silly for bicycles. I disagree. I have witnessed a large number of pedestrian collisions because fellow cyclists didn't want to stop. In london the large majority of traffic lights that "make no sense" are normally pedestrian crossings. This is why I stop at red lights, even though its more tiring. I had to administer first aid to someone who was knocked over on london bridge by a cyclist and was rendered unconscious. The sniveling little shit fucked off and left the man in the middle of the road. Yes Cyclists are smaller and more nimble, to a point. But that does not mean they are less dangerous to pedestrians. The rules are there for all road users, or not at all. In the UK at least they are there to protect the most vulnerable: pedestrians.
- globular-toast 5y ago
  The Idaho Stop doesn't mean you blast through red. You stop. Then proceed through if it's safe. This would be about as dangerous as accidentally walking into someone on the pavement. There are idiots with no regard to others' safety everywhere, unfortunately. I'd rather they were riding bikes than driving cars. I'm not sure if pedestrians are more vulnerable than cyclists. Maybe marginally if the cyclist is wearing a helmet but they are both essentially as vulnerable as you can be.
  - KaiserPro 5y ago
    > The Idaho Stop doesn't mean you blast through red. You stop. Aha, this make much more sense! > Maybe marginally if the cyclist is wearing a helmet but they are both essentially as vulnerable as you can be. Its more the point of impact, the pedestrian gets hit by the handlebars which are small and pointy. The cyclist will normally get cushioned by the pedestrian. However I suspect that numbers and collisions are tightly coupled to country. the pavement layouts are different.

brnt 5y ago

Incidentally, Dutch law does not require helmets based on research that shows this 'dehumanizes' cyclists; car drivers take disproportionally more risk when they see helmets, assuming that they are safe.

onlyrealcuzzo 5y ago
My biggest cycling friend in the US convinced me not to where a helmet for this reason. Where I am - there's pretty good bike infrastructure - and I can get to and from work and anywhere else I bike on good separated but not completely protected bike paths. I'm assuming not wearing a helmet was proved to be good on an individual level? Does it mean you're less likely to get in an accident? When you get in an accident, are you also less likely to be severely injured? Also - are there any stats on how likely you are to be injured on different types of bike paths? Like just sharing the road vs separated paths vs protected paths?
- Freak_NL 5y ago
  There are statistics for head injuries incurred riding a bicycle, but some find that these alone do not show the full effect of making a helmet mandatory. The Dutch Cyclists’ Union is particularly vocal about this¹. Their take is that creating a culture where wearing a helmet on a bicycle is normal has a significant negative effect on health in general and safety by raising the barrier of riding a bicycle. When you need a helmet, you have to lug it around even when you're just popping out for some groceries. The effects of mandatory helmets in neighbouring countries show that these have a non-negligible effect on participation, leading to fewer cyclists. For cyclists however, there is safety in numbers; motorists are more considerate of cyclists simply because they are everywhere and part of the normal roadscape². There is also the simple weighing of risks: head injuries are, comparatively, very rare. The energy devoted to making helmets mandatory are better spent in improving road safety by different means. For children the risk of head injury occurring is simply higher, which is why you will see many children wear helmets in the Netherlands until they reach their teens. 1: https://www.fietsersbond.nl/ons-werk/fietsers-en-veiligheid/fietshelmen/ https://www.fietsersbond.nl/ons-werk/fietsers-en-veiligheid/... 2: Almost exclusively low speed roads; up to 30 km/h within built-up areas, 60 km/h without. Faster roads tend to have separate cycleways near or parallel to them and prohibit cyclists from using the roads themselves.

Doctor_Fegg 5y ago

This is not a great take. You're generalising based on some half-formed observations. Of course US cyclists are not either "raging hippies or aggressive couriers". Next time someone riding a bike is in intensive care after being knocked down by a motorist I hope you have more sympathy than your comment would suggest.

KaiserPro 5y ago
I have not, and will not condone drivers that cause accidents because "ugh cyclists". I commute in london by cycle. I am also a driver. I expect both driver and cyclist to respect the rules and each other. I do not jump red lights, because that is not what one does. Over the last 5 years cycling has become much safer and less dangerous. The traffic is slower, and there is more segregation in central london. In the suburbs its not as rosy. I have not, and did not seek to justify the viewpoint expressed in the article, only to add my observations, which were clearly marked as personal opinions.

gadders 5y ago

Cycling in Belgium is different from cycling in the UK. From what I saw in Brugge, people just get on a bike to cycle to work, or the shops, on a regular sit up and beg type bike. They're just getting from place to place. They're not trying to set a new personal best. In the UK, it more tends to be packs of 10 or so middle aged men aggressively riding racing bikes delaying all the traffic for 100s of metres behind them.

tonyedgecombe 5y ago
- gadders 5y ago
  - llampx 5y ago
    So no one should jog or run on public roads either? No doing push-ups in a public park? Glad you're not the dictator of the world.
    - jseban 5y ago
      No people should not run on public roads, why would you do that? I've never ran on a public road. Parks are made for recreation, not transportation. You don't do pushups on a busy sidewalk where people are trying to walk
      - llampx 5y ago
        s/road/sidewalk Of course there are places (many of them in the US) where a road or street exists but no sidewalk so you have to walk, bicycle or run on it.
    - FeepingCreature 5y ago
      Of course nobody should jog or run on a road.

ivvve 5y ago

What's more likely: millions (tens of millions?) of people are "dicks", "raging hippies", or "noisy shites", for no other reason than the mode of transport they choose, or you're lazily generalising to justify an extremely solipsistic world view? Very gracious of you to clarify they're "not subhuman" too, that definitely makes clear that you are making a balanced and thorough assessment. Thanks for your erudite contribution to this matter, the Nobel peace prize committee will be getting in touch shortly.

lamontcg 5y ago

> Adherence to the rules of red lights is lax amongst <15% of cyclist. Cars and trucks break rules all the time, but drivers don't get collectively punished with logic like "this is the driver that gives all drivers a bad name". The dehumanization of cyclists is precisely the reason why so many people are okay with the logic of collective punishment towards them. People don't do that with drivers because usually when they're observing the poor behavior of drivers they are driving themselves.