5 ms·

The solution isn’t for everyone to make web apps, it’s to regulate the app markets. Web apps are still at the mercy of Apple and Google. Plus, they’re always l

by bogwog 5y ago

The solution isn’t for everyone to make web apps, it’s to regulate the app markets. Web apps are still at the mercy of Apple and Google. Plus, they’re always lagging in features. Wordle for example wouldn’t have been able to implement the sharing feature before ~2019 because the web share API wasn’t supported by major browsers (even though it’s a thing native apps could do since forever)

endisneigh 5y ago
> The solution isn’t for everyone to make web apps, it’s to regulate the app markets. I'm not really seeing how regulation would really fix the scenario in the OP. What regulations that are likely to pass would prevent Apple and Google from removing apps arbitrarily? > Web apps are still at the mercy of Apple and Google. Not really. Apple and Google don't control the entire internet. Though they do have some level of control of the APIs available, ultimately they themselves use the same APIs as well, so... In any case I disagree with you - web apps are the solution because every app that becomes a Web App instead of native app results in a loosening in the grip that is the Apple/Google duopoly. Once at a critical mass, sites will pop up to curate all of these new found web apps, APIs will be developed to facilitate payments for these apps, and so forth. Ironically Google initially was not able to compete with Apple with respect to app store curation and promoted PWAs aggressively, but no one really bit. If people just went with that to begin with we wouldn't be in this situation now. So instead of going with PWAs, Google just ended up copying Apple and now both of them just rent seek instead of one. Prior to PWAs, there were "responsive pages" and Steve Jobs in 2007 actually thought that it would make more sense of all iPhone apps were just responsive apps instead of native apps, and locked down the API to strictly first party apps. Hackers jail broke the iPhone to unlock all of the functionality, forcing Apple to launch the App Store, resulting in the situation now before us. We're being given a second chance here with WebAssembly. Let's not screw it up this time around, ya?
- josephcsible 5y ago
  > I'm not really seeing how regulation would really fix the scenario in the OP. What regulations that are likely to pass would prevent Apple and Google from removing apps arbitrarily? Regulate the markets by letting other stores compete, not by regulating the current monopolistic stores. Force OS developers to make it easy and practical to use alternative app stores, and able to compete fairly with the first-party ones. On iOS, you can't do so at all without jailbreaking, and on Android, there's tons of scary warnings, and there's some stuff like automatic background updates that are impossible for anything but the Play Store unless you root.
  - endisneigh 5y ago
    Why would regulation result in more permissiveness? From my reading most implemented regulation has resulted in more restrictiveness, and things like DRM. If that happened I'd love it though, as the precedent would presumably allow for all stores, like game consoles, appliances, etc. to open up their operating systems to allow any arbitrary software to be installed. Even if there were more app stores I bet it would result in all apps having to be signed by Google, in the same way anyone can purchase their own domain but are still limited in that DNS is centralized.
    - rodgerd 5y ago
      > Why would regulation result in more permissiveness? Why assume that people who have bought into devices with closed ecosystems want more permissiveness? Who does this benefit? Most of this seems like question begging for ad-tech and similarly scummy business models.
    - josephcsible 5y ago
      > Even if there were more app stores I bet it would result in all apps having to be signed by Google That's the kind of thing I'd want the regulation to ban.
      - endisneigh 5y ago
        I'm sure, but what I'm saying what proposals that are realistically going to pass do that? Look at the history of software regulation, it generally restricts things.
        Apocryphon 5y ago
        The whole point of regulating app markets is so that monopolies aren't the only ones capable of doing regulating.
        smaudet 5y ago
        So there is precedent, OFC it doesn't exist in a vacuum, but whem Microsoft was forced to provide browser alternatives, most people went with other browsers. Sure, some used IE or edge still, but it meant people knew it was even an option, which was arguably big. Of course, we are currently in danger of Chrome being the monopoly, and seeing already all the awful things that brings. But this is in part directly related to the scam going on with device lockin - it's not just Android, but that plays a large part in Chrome takimg majority market share. Demanding app stores are allowed, or better that devices can be repaired by anyone, would mean more alt OS installs, more aftermarket devices, healthier software ecosystem, more economic activity. The Irony of these tools not being widely available, means in Western countries there is not much of a third party market, not much software support, whereas countries like China can have built up the infrastructure to manufacture novel phones almost overnight...
- bogwog 5y ago
  > I'm not really seeing how regulation would really fix the scenario in the OP. What regulations that are likely to pass would prevent Apple and Google from removing apps arbitrarily? Forcing them to allow alternative app stores for starters. The only reason they can get away with doing this stuff is because they each have 100% market share.
  - endisneigh 5y ago
    > regulations that are likely to pass would prevent Apple and Google from removing apps arbitrarily? Any proposals?
- conradev 5y ago
  > I'm not really seeing how regulation would really fix the scenario in the OP. What regulations that are likely to pass would prevent Apple and Google from removing apps arbitrarily? https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/senate-bill/2710/text https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/senate-bill/271...
lucaaa 5y ago
Wordle could have used copy to clipboard or link to share eg. Twitter https://twitter.com/home?status=blabla https://twitter.com/home?status=blabla
- frosted-flakes 5y ago
  Wordle does use copy-to-clipboard.
  - bogwog 5y ago
    No it doesn’t. The share button opens a native share dialog, which is only possible with the web share API.
    - frosted-flakes 5y ago
      For me, tapping Share pops up a toast message saying "Copied results to clipboard", and then I go to my family group messaging thread and paste the results. I know that it's possible to invoke the native share dialogue because Reddit does it, but for me, Wordle does not. Firefox on Android.
      - mdoms 5y ago
        Sounds like Firefox hasn't implemented the API. No surprise, Firefox is always miles behind on stuff users actually want. It works with the native share box on Edge Android.
        frosted-flakes 5y ago
        You misunderstand. Firefox has implemented the API, because it works on Reddit and other websites.
      - kingcharles 5y ago
        Same for me, Chrome on Windows 11.
dmix 5y ago
You really think those regulations won’t be heavily lobbied by Nintendo and DRM loving lawyers, and somehow end up even worse for consumers or more importantly small developers? Maybe I’m cynical but I highly doubt it’s going to be “make your app stores completely replaceable without DRM/billing/taxation/etc schemes and allow unrestricted sideloading”.
- bogwog 5y ago
  It can’t possibly get worse for consumers
  - dmix 5y ago
    I can think of plenty of ways where mega-companies and governments could make power-grabs and increase control/administration over app stores ("get your app approved by EU/US/Japanese agency to get a geo license to distribute your app"). As opposed to simply forcing tech companies to take a more hands-off approach. I can think of 100x examples of the former in other industries and almost no modern examples of the latter happening (besides maybe right-to-repair, which hasn't meaningfully happened anywhere yet).
  - fourthark 5y ago
    It can always get worse

by bogwog 5y ago

endisneigh 5y ago

> The solution isn’t for everyone to make web apps, it’s to regulate the app markets. I'm not really seeing how regulation would really fix the scenario in the OP. What regulations that are likely to pass would prevent Apple and Google from removing apps arbitrarily? > Web apps are still at the mercy of Apple and Google. Not really. Apple and Google don't control the entire internet. Though they do have some level of control of the APIs available, ultimately they themselves use the same APIs as well, so... In any case I disagree with you - web apps are the solution because every app that becomes a Web App instead of native app results in a loosening in the grip that is the Apple/Google duopoly. Once at a critical mass, sites will pop up to curate all of these new found web apps, APIs will be developed to facilitate payments for these apps, and so forth. Ironically Google initially was not able to compete with Apple with respect to app store curation and promoted PWAs aggressively, but no one really bit. If people just went with that to begin with we wouldn't be in this situation now. So instead of going with PWAs, Google just ended up copying Apple and now both of them just rent seek instead of one. Prior to PWAs, there were "responsive pages" and Steve Jobs in 2007 actually thought that it would make more sense of all iPhone apps were just responsive apps instead of native apps, and locked down the API to strictly first party apps. Hackers jail broke the iPhone to unlock all of the functionality, forcing Apple to launch the App Store, resulting in the situation now before us. We're being given a second chance here with WebAssembly. Let's not screw it up this time around, ya?

josephcsible 5y ago
> I'm not really seeing how regulation would really fix the scenario in the OP. What regulations that are likely to pass would prevent Apple and Google from removing apps arbitrarily? Regulate the markets by letting other stores compete, not by regulating the current monopolistic stores. Force OS developers to make it easy and practical to use alternative app stores, and able to compete fairly with the first-party ones. On iOS, you can't do so at all without jailbreaking, and on Android, there's tons of scary warnings, and there's some stuff like automatic background updates that are impossible for anything but the Play Store unless you root.
- endisneigh 5y ago
  Why would regulation result in more permissiveness? From my reading most implemented regulation has resulted in more restrictiveness, and things like DRM. If that happened I'd love it though, as the precedent would presumably allow for all stores, like game consoles, appliances, etc. to open up their operating systems to allow any arbitrary software to be installed. Even if there were more app stores I bet it would result in all apps having to be signed by Google, in the same way anyone can purchase their own domain but are still limited in that DNS is centralized.
  - rodgerd 5y ago
    > Why would regulation result in more permissiveness? Why assume that people who have bought into devices with closed ecosystems want more permissiveness? Who does this benefit? Most of this seems like question begging for ad-tech and similarly scummy business models.
  - josephcsible 5y ago
    > Even if there were more app stores I bet it would result in all apps having to be signed by Google That's the kind of thing I'd want the regulation to ban.
    - endisneigh 5y ago
      I'm sure, but what I'm saying what proposals that are realistically going to pass do that? Look at the history of software regulation, it generally restricts things.
      - Apocryphon 5y ago
        The whole point of regulating app markets is so that monopolies aren't the only ones capable of doing regulating.
      - smaudet 5y ago
        So there is precedent, OFC it doesn't exist in a vacuum, but whem Microsoft was forced to provide browser alternatives, most people went with other browsers. Sure, some used IE or edge still, but it meant people knew it was even an option, which was arguably big. Of course, we are currently in danger of Chrome being the monopoly, and seeing already all the awful things that brings. But this is in part directly related to the scam going on with device lockin - it's not just Android, but that plays a large part in Chrome takimg majority market share. Demanding app stores are allowed, or better that devices can be repaired by anyone, would mean more alt OS installs, more aftermarket devices, healthier software ecosystem, more economic activity. The Irony of these tools not being widely available, means in Western countries there is not much of a third party market, not much software support, whereas countries like China can have built up the infrastructure to manufacture novel phones almost overnight...
bogwog 5y ago
> I'm not really seeing how regulation would really fix the scenario in the OP. What regulations that are likely to pass would prevent Apple and Google from removing apps arbitrarily? Forcing them to allow alternative app stores for starters. The only reason they can get away with doing this stuff is because they each have 100% market share.
- endisneigh 5y ago
  > regulations that are likely to pass would prevent Apple and Google from removing apps arbitrarily? Any proposals?
conradev 5y ago
> I'm not really seeing how regulation would really fix the scenario in the OP. What regulations that are likely to pass would prevent Apple and Google from removing apps arbitrarily? https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/senate-bill/2710/text https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/senate-bill/271...

lucaaa 5y ago

Wordle could have used copy to clipboard or link to share eg. Twitter https://twitter.com/home?status=blabla https://twitter.com/home?status=blabla

frosted-flakes 5y ago
Wordle does use copy-to-clipboard.
- bogwog 5y ago
  No it doesn’t. The share button opens a native share dialog, which is only possible with the web share API.
  - frosted-flakes 5y ago
    For me, tapping Share pops up a toast message saying "Copied results to clipboard", and then I go to my family group messaging thread and paste the results. I know that it's possible to invoke the native share dialogue because Reddit does it, but for me, Wordle does not. Firefox on Android.
    - mdoms 5y ago
      Sounds like Firefox hasn't implemented the API. No surprise, Firefox is always miles behind on stuff users actually want. It works with the native share box on Edge Android.
      - frosted-flakes 5y ago
        You misunderstand. Firefox has implemented the API, because it works on Reddit and other websites.
    - kingcharles 5y ago
      Same for me, Chrome on Windows 11.

dmix 5y ago

You really think those regulations won’t be heavily lobbied by Nintendo and DRM loving lawyers, and somehow end up even worse for consumers or more importantly small developers? Maybe I’m cynical but I highly doubt it’s going to be “make your app stores completely replaceable without DRM/billing/taxation/etc schemes and allow unrestricted sideloading”.

bogwog 5y ago
It can’t possibly get worse for consumers
- dmix 5y ago
  I can think of plenty of ways where mega-companies and governments could make power-grabs and increase control/administration over app stores ("get your app approved by EU/US/Japanese agency to get a geo license to distribute your app"). As opposed to simply forcing tech companies to take a more hands-off approach. I can think of 100x examples of the former in other industries and almost no modern examples of the latter happening (besides maybe right-to-repair, which hasn't meaningfully happened anywhere yet).
- fourthark 5y ago
  It can always get worse