5 ms·

The people profiting of it (like you) are usually distinct from those suffering from it. If you didn't sleep because of the noise of the thing you are using you

by consp 5y ago

The people profiting of it (like you) are usually distinct from those suffering from it. If you didn't sleep because of the noise of the thing you are using you would think twice. Typical NIMBY problems. It's the same with the stupid electric scooters and bikes which get dumped all over the place and clutter the streets, but those streets are usually not where those people live who use them.

user_7832 5y ago
I agree that the 2 groups are often very distinct (though I have been almost hit by speeding delivery bikes only too often as any Dutchie would complain about). I am cognizant of the issues, I just wish the cos. would work with and talk to the residents instead of unilaterally themselves going about setting up shop.
lucb1e 5y ago
At the same time, I'd much rather have electric transportation devices strewn across the street, than cars (especially the smoking kind) on the street rushing by all day long as they currently are. The number of accidents with these 1000kg blocks of aluminium (more if it's electric) or their energy needs for individual whims... we're going to be 8 billion people soon, smaller individual transport is not a bad thing. If something needs to be done about the placement, well, we have plenty of space over if we could convert even just 50% of the roads to something other than broad slabs of obstruction-free flat space. (Edit: I'm not the downvoter. I don't agree but that doesn't make it a nonuseful perspective.) Edit#2: Observing the votes on this comment, presumably from car lovers/haters, is quite interesting. Not sure it's a good sign if I wrote engaging but not generally agreeable content.
- consp 5y ago
  If those things would be operated like bikes/scooters people own themselves sure as that usually means some form of restraint. The problem is that these are not and are put in places where the do not belong like in front of doors or the middle of the curb blocking the path for everyone. People don't care and the businesses use public space like it's their own parking space to the detriment of others and there is little to no penalty for abuse. That is a general problem with the ride sharing with small transportation as well as with these stores: As long as you only reap the benefits it's less likely to see the problems associated and felt by others.
  - lucb1e 5y ago
    > People don't care and the businesses use public space like it's their own parking space to the detriment of others That's what we have laws for. Right now they're insufficient because the phenomenon is new and not widespread enough to urgently overhaul things for. Just because, right now, there are problems and some people exploit the legal situation, that doesn't mean this is how it will always need to be if we are to keep small electric personal transportation devices as a concept.
- Freak_NL 5y ago
  Except that these app-rental bicycles, mopeds, and scooters don't actually replace cars. They reportedly replace use of public transport, privately owned bicycles, and just walking. They appear to be a net-negative to society in their current incarnation. Cars are way too dominant, even here in bicycle-friendly Netherlands, but these app-rental things don't change anything on that front.
  - lucb1e 5y ago
    > They reportedly replace use of public transport Because most people still use a car for anything further than a few streets away, presumably. I'm not going to electric-scooter my way from Roermond/Weert to Eindhoven every day but I know a lot of people that drive or train-ride that distance daily (pre-pandemic). Can't it be considered public transport as well if they're owned by a transportation company, to be used by the public, and not an individual? Right now it'll fall outside of laws that require things like accessibility for sure, but that's bound to change if this takes over as a better alternative to crowded buses. If you have a link and/or some keywords I'd also be curious to read your source material btw!
    - Freak_NL 5y ago
      > Can't it be considered public transport as well if they're owned by a transportation company, to be used by the public, and not an individual? Sure. But then you would have something that is actively managed and planned by the local municipal government (implemented by a commercial or semi-governmental public transport company). It wouldn't look like the current mess where coverage is decided exclusively on the basis of profitability, multiple companies battling for dominance in the same area, and externalities such as misuse of public space left completely unaddressed (because not technically illegal). A proper solution that could be considered part of public transport would have rentable (e-)bicycles with fixed terminals to retrieve and return from/to. Like Citybike Wien or StadtRAD Hamburg. > If you have a link and/or some keywords I'd also be curious to read your source material btw! I read it in a column in NRC, the source referred to is this report by the Amsterdam municipality: https://docplayer.nl/221773234-Tussentijdse-rapportage-deelvervoer-in-amsterdam-deelscooter-en-deelauto.html https://docplayer.nl/221773234-Tussentijdse-rapportage-deelv...

by consp 5y ago

user_7832 5y ago

I agree that the 2 groups are often very distinct (though I have been almost hit by speeding delivery bikes only too often as any Dutchie would complain about). I am cognizant of the issues, I just wish the cos. would work with and talk to the residents instead of unilaterally themselves going about setting up shop.

lucb1e 5y ago

At the same time, I'd much rather have electric transportation devices strewn across the street, than cars (especially the smoking kind) on the street rushing by all day long as they currently are. The number of accidents with these 1000kg blocks of aluminium (more if it's electric) or their energy needs for individual whims... we're going to be 8 billion people soon, smaller individual transport is not a bad thing. If something needs to be done about the placement, well, we have plenty of space over if we could convert even just 50% of the roads to something other than broad slabs of obstruction-free flat space. (Edit: I'm not the downvoter. I don't agree but that doesn't make it a nonuseful perspective.) Edit#2: Observing the votes on this comment, presumably from car lovers/haters, is quite interesting. Not sure it's a good sign if I wrote engaging but not generally agreeable content.

consp 5y ago
If those things would be operated like bikes/scooters people own themselves sure as that usually means some form of restraint. The problem is that these are not and are put in places where the do not belong like in front of doors or the middle of the curb blocking the path for everyone. People don't care and the businesses use public space like it's their own parking space to the detriment of others and there is little to no penalty for abuse. That is a general problem with the ride sharing with small transportation as well as with these stores: As long as you only reap the benefits it's less likely to see the problems associated and felt by others.
- lucb1e 5y ago
  > People don't care and the businesses use public space like it's their own parking space to the detriment of others That's what we have laws for. Right now they're insufficient because the phenomenon is new and not widespread enough to urgently overhaul things for. Just because, right now, there are problems and some people exploit the legal situation, that doesn't mean this is how it will always need to be if we are to keep small electric personal transportation devices as a concept.
Freak_NL 5y ago
Except that these app-rental bicycles, mopeds, and scooters don't actually replace cars. They reportedly replace use of public transport, privately owned bicycles, and just walking. They appear to be a net-negative to society in their current incarnation. Cars are way too dominant, even here in bicycle-friendly Netherlands, but these app-rental things don't change anything on that front.
- lucb1e 5y ago
  > They reportedly replace use of public transport Because most people still use a car for anything further than a few streets away, presumably. I'm not going to electric-scooter my way from Roermond/Weert to Eindhoven every day but I know a lot of people that drive or train-ride that distance daily (pre-pandemic). Can't it be considered public transport as well if they're owned by a transportation company, to be used by the public, and not an individual? Right now it'll fall outside of laws that require things like accessibility for sure, but that's bound to change if this takes over as a better alternative to crowded buses. If you have a link and/or some keywords I'd also be curious to read your source material btw!
  - Freak_NL 5y ago
    > Can't it be considered public transport as well if they're owned by a transportation company, to be used by the public, and not an individual? Sure. But then you would have something that is actively managed and planned by the local municipal government (implemented by a commercial or semi-governmental public transport company). It wouldn't look like the current mess where coverage is decided exclusively on the basis of profitability, multiple companies battling for dominance in the same area, and externalities such as misuse of public space left completely unaddressed (because not technically illegal). A proper solution that could be considered part of public transport would have rentable (e-)bicycles with fixed terminals to retrieve and return from/to. Like Citybike Wien or StadtRAD Hamburg. > If you have a link and/or some keywords I'd also be curious to read your source material btw! I read it in a column in NRC, the source referred to is this report by the Amsterdam municipality: https://docplayer.nl/221773234-Tussentijdse-rapportage-deelvervoer-in-amsterdam-deelscooter-en-deelauto.html https://docplayer.nl/221773234-Tussentijdse-rapportage-deelv...