17 ms·

There's a crackdown in Utrecht as well: https://www.duic.nl/algemeen/utrecht-legt-flitsbezorgers-aan-banden-zonder-vergunning-niet-meer-welkom-in-woon-of-winkel

by ruuda 5y ago

There's a crackdown in Utrecht as well: https://www.duic.nl/algemeen/utrecht-legt-flitsbezorgers-aan-banden-zonder-vergunning-niet-meer-welkom-in-woon-of-winkelbuurten/ https://www.duic.nl/algemeen/utrecht-legt-flitsbezorgers-aan... (Dutch) It does feel magic to order groceries and have them at your doorstep in 10 minutes (literally). But it's rarely useful.

agumonkey 5y ago
I thought about offering something like this to neighbors (for small orders) just so they don't drive their car to the bakery (I use a bike).
user_7832 5y ago
> It does feel magic to order groceries and have them at your doorstep in 10 minutes (literally). But it's rarely useful. Please speak for yourself. It might not make much of a difference for you or perhaps many people, but a lot of people like me also find it to be highly convenient. When I'm tired and out of time instead of ordering an unhealthy meal from $FOODDELIVERYAPP$ I can (and very frequently do) buy something relatively healthier from such a site. Of course, the negatives need to be countered too, but their high popularity does indicate I'm unsurprisingly not alone.
- FpUser 5y ago
  I can't imagine buying produce without actually seeing it.
  - user_7832 5y ago
    Very often the food is a factory-made package (think yogurt/milk carton rather than a broccoli), so there's absolutely no difference in that case. Personally I never buy vegetables like this.
  - SamoyedFurFluff 5y ago
    I’ve used produce delivery services before and rarely have I received a quality that isn’t decent. These people don’t benefit by providing poor service, don’t benefit by providing poor produce.
  - matsemann 5y ago
    (disclaimer, I work for an online grocer) It can actually be better buying online. For a normal grocery store the apples first have to go to some distributor on big pallets and wait there. Then some of the apples are sent with other goods to a grocery store with the next delivery. There they will lay up to a week in non-ideal conditions with multiple people touching them. Online, they can be distributed almost instantly when they arrive to the customer, and in the meantime they are stored perfectly. Also less waste, since one doesn't have to ship excessive amounts that won't be sold to all the small stores, to avoid any store running out. This doesn't apply to these smaller darkstores/instant deliveries, though, as they are basically small grocery shops with the same negatives of inefficient distribution.
    - Fnoord 5y ago
      (We order our food online at a conventional grocery store every week but no 10 minute delivery.) You cannot touch or smell the food before you buy it. You cannot pick your own based on that, or date (it has to be OK for 1 day after delivery day according to their own rules). But anything they don't deliver, anything which was rotten or otherwise over date we just mark as such, and get our money back. And sometimes we get extra stuff we did not order, which we then just share with our neighbors at times (one of our neighbors are meat eaters not into veggie stuff and we are more or less the opposite). I think this dark store 10 min delivery stuff makes sense if you got a very busy or limited life. Double parent full time job, new born, covid quarantine. That kind of stuff. I suppose its expensive though. That said, I believe its very valuable to respect your neighbors as much as reasonable (e.g. newborns cry, sorry! -- been there). That includes businesses in citizen zoning. Maybe it should only be legal if a real person lives there? There's also good reasons I don't live in Amsterdam but near it. This noise stuff is one of 'em. Amsterdam is too crowdy and expensive. I am within 30 minutes in Amsterdam Central Station with public transport (not that I go given covid...)
  - will4274 5y ago
    Why? You see it when it comes to your house. If it doesn't look good, you throw it away and don't order from them anymore. It's the exact same as delivery food or just eating in a restaurant, for that matter.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - FpUser 5y ago
      I do not really need an explanation. I just do it this way and have no intention of changing it.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- BossingAround 5y ago
  OP talked about usefulness, you talk about convenience. The two are different. > Of course, the negatives need to be countered too, but their high popularity does indicate I'm unsurprisingly not alone. Popularity and demand is behind, among others, deforestation and global warming. What people want and what we can have is not always the same. I don't know if that is the case here, I am simply stating that popularity alone is not a great indicator.
- consp 5y ago
  The people profiting of it (like you) are usually distinct from those suffering from it. If you didn't sleep because of the noise of the thing you are using you would think twice. Typical NIMBY problems. It's the same with the stupid electric scooters and bikes which get dumped all over the place and clutter the streets, but those streets are usually not where those people live who use them.
  - user_7832 5y ago
    I agree that the 2 groups are often very distinct (though I have been almost hit by speeding delivery bikes only too often as any Dutchie would complain about). I am cognizant of the issues, I just wish the cos. would work with and talk to the residents instead of unilaterally themselves going about setting up shop.
  - lucb1e 5y ago
    At the same time, I'd much rather have electric transportation devices strewn across the street, than cars (especially the smoking kind) on the street rushing by all day long as they currently are. The number of accidents with these 1000kg blocks of aluminium (more if it's electric) or their energy needs for individual whims... we're going to be 8 billion people soon, smaller individual transport is not a bad thing. If something needs to be done about the placement, well, we have plenty of space over if we could convert even just 50% of the roads to something other than broad slabs of obstruction-free flat space. (Edit: I'm not the downvoter. I don't agree but that doesn't make it a nonuseful perspective.) Edit#2: Observing the votes on this comment, presumably from car lovers/haters, is quite interesting. Not sure it's a good sign if I wrote engaging but not generally agreeable content.
    - consp 5y ago
      If those things would be operated like bikes/scooters people own themselves sure as that usually means some form of restraint. The problem is that these are not and are put in places where the do not belong like in front of doors or the middle of the curb blocking the path for everyone. People don't care and the businesses use public space like it's their own parking space to the detriment of others and there is little to no penalty for abuse. That is a general problem with the ride sharing with small transportation as well as with these stores: As long as you only reap the benefits it's less likely to see the problems associated and felt by others.
- DoingIsLearning 5y ago
  > When I'm tired and out of time Without wanting to pass judgement but as someone who experienced burnout in past positions, if you don't have the time or energy to do some form of weekly shopping (even if online) and cook some food, it feels to me that the solution is that you need to work less and rest more, rather than rely on 10 min delivery because you're mentally drained to do anything else.
  - user_7832 5y ago
    Oh for sure I need to get my life in order (I'm still a student albeit at a masters level), though I think a am pending a diagnosis of a medical condition that affects energy and motivation a lot :)
  - aaron695 5y ago
  - lucb1e 5y ago
    > the solution is that you need to work less and rest more, rather than rely on 10 min delivery because you're mentally drained That is presumably the goal of everyone in such a situation. In the meantime, it can help them get through it (I'm thinking of having a newborn here in particular, but there are also various other stressing times in an average life), though it makes me wonder if this inadvertently/indirectly supports this state of being because there is less incentive to change it back to something more healthy. Edit: For my future reference, this comment is nonconstructive how? (Sometimes I wonder what the effect would be of showing the downvote button only after a comment has any replies at all, anything that's bad enough not to engage with should be flagged after all, but then it's very hard to measure objectively if that makes people get better feedback and use it for the better or not.)
  - chapium 5y ago
    This can break down with roommates/partners. You may be wanting to prepare a meal only to find out something you knew you had plenty of is suddenly wiped out. Having a quick delivery service may be a great alternative to someone who is pinched for time and would rather not order out something unhealthy.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- GrumpyNl 5y ago
  Buy a fridge and you can order order within 24hrs.
- meesterdude 5y ago
  > Please speak for yourself. Why the attitude? It's disingenuous to infer they were stating anything other than their opinion.
  - user_7832 5y ago
    I do not wish to come across as brutish (though I think you are right and I apologize for any perceived rudeness). OP made a statement along the lines of "These stores are useless". I could of course say that he is wrong or a liar but what I wanted to convey was that his experience was only an experience and not an absolute fact.
  - tinus_hn 5y ago
    > But it's rarely useful. This is a judgement, dismissing an idea as ‘not useful’.
awillen 5y ago
It's useful if you're disabled, or your work schedule makes it tough to shop or any number of other reasons. Just because something isn't useful for you doesn't mean it's not useful.
- qw 5y ago
  You have a valid point, but the article states that they place darks stores in residential areas to decrease the delivery time. There is a need for these services, but we also need to think about all those who are negatively impacted by this. By placing the warehouse outside the residential area, they may increase the delivery time by 15-20 minutes. Isn't that a good enough compromise for the customers? Saving 20 minutes on grocery delivery is not worth the human cost.
  - mvanbaak 5y ago
    They will switch to cars for delivery. No thanks. I agree that the current situation is bad. How about using all those empty properties in ahopping centra?
- mnd999 5y ago
  That’s a pretty small market that in no way justifies pumping enormous amounts of VC cash into putting convenience stores out of business.
- elsjaako 5y ago
  A lot of the supermarkets in the Netherlands have delivery options, without all the nuisance. It's just that you have to think in hours, not minutes, for delivery.
rapfaria 5y ago
Last New Years Eve I was cooking with my SO and among other things, we were planning on having rice. I realized at that point that I had bought brown rice by mistake, instead of white rice (small package, both look the same around here). 10 minutes later we had white rice from one these dark stores. That one time it was really useful.
- bombcar 5y ago
  I’ve had a similar experience - was out of something for Christmas dinner iirc, and five minutes later I had it after running over to the 24-hr gas station which has a surprisingly large convenience store.
- pxtail 5y ago
  Damn, that's the dedication - triggering whole complex operation where multiple people and systems are engaged and consume energy just to get slightly different kind of rice.
  - nomdep 5y ago
    A completely different kind of rice. I love regular white rice, but find disgusting the texture and flavor of brown rice.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - renewiltord 5y ago
    That’s nothing. Think about the immense scale of operation required just to let you instantly comment on someone relating that story. We have massive ships that roam the seas to keep your connectivity alive.
    - pxtail 5y ago
      [flagged]
  - 5y ago
k1rac 5y ago
Its very useful for couples with kids living in the center of a city.

by ruuda 5y ago

agumonkey 5y ago

I thought about offering something like this to neighbors (for small orders) just so they don't drive their car to the bakery (I use a bike).

user_7832 5y ago

> It does feel magic to order groceries and have them at your doorstep in 10 minutes (literally). But it's rarely useful. Please speak for yourself. It might not make much of a difference for you or perhaps many people, but a lot of people like me also find it to be highly convenient. When I'm tired and out of time instead of ordering an unhealthy meal from $FOODDELIVERYAPP$ I can (and very frequently do) buy something relatively healthier from such a site. Of course, the negatives need to be countered too, but their high popularity does indicate I'm unsurprisingly not alone.

FpUser 5y ago
I can't imagine buying produce without actually seeing it.
- user_7832 5y ago
  Very often the food is a factory-made package (think yogurt/milk carton rather than a broccoli), so there's absolutely no difference in that case. Personally I never buy vegetables like this.
- SamoyedFurFluff 5y ago
  I’ve used produce delivery services before and rarely have I received a quality that isn’t decent. These people don’t benefit by providing poor service, don’t benefit by providing poor produce.
- matsemann 5y ago
  (disclaimer, I work for an online grocer) It can actually be better buying online. For a normal grocery store the apples first have to go to some distributor on big pallets and wait there. Then some of the apples are sent with other goods to a grocery store with the next delivery. There they will lay up to a week in non-ideal conditions with multiple people touching them. Online, they can be distributed almost instantly when they arrive to the customer, and in the meantime they are stored perfectly. Also less waste, since one doesn't have to ship excessive amounts that won't be sold to all the small stores, to avoid any store running out. This doesn't apply to these smaller darkstores/instant deliveries, though, as they are basically small grocery shops with the same negatives of inefficient distribution.
  - Fnoord 5y ago
    (We order our food online at a conventional grocery store every week but no 10 minute delivery.) You cannot touch or smell the food before you buy it. You cannot pick your own based on that, or date (it has to be OK for 1 day after delivery day according to their own rules). But anything they don't deliver, anything which was rotten or otherwise over date we just mark as such, and get our money back. And sometimes we get extra stuff we did not order, which we then just share with our neighbors at times (one of our neighbors are meat eaters not into veggie stuff and we are more or less the opposite). I think this dark store 10 min delivery stuff makes sense if you got a very busy or limited life. Double parent full time job, new born, covid quarantine. That kind of stuff. I suppose its expensive though. That said, I believe its very valuable to respect your neighbors as much as reasonable (e.g. newborns cry, sorry! -- been there). That includes businesses in citizen zoning. Maybe it should only be legal if a real person lives there? There's also good reasons I don't live in Amsterdam but near it. This noise stuff is one of 'em. Amsterdam is too crowdy and expensive. I am within 30 minutes in Amsterdam Central Station with public transport (not that I go given covid...)
- will4274 5y ago
  Why? You see it when it comes to your house. If it doesn't look good, you throw it away and don't order from them anymore. It's the exact same as delivery food or just eating in a restaurant, for that matter.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - FpUser 5y ago
    I do not really need an explanation. I just do it this way and have no intention of changing it.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
BossingAround 5y ago
OP talked about usefulness, you talk about convenience. The two are different. > Of course, the negatives need to be countered too, but their high popularity does indicate I'm unsurprisingly not alone. Popularity and demand is behind, among others, deforestation and global warming. What people want and what we can have is not always the same. I don't know if that is the case here, I am simply stating that popularity alone is not a great indicator.
consp 5y ago
The people profiting of it (like you) are usually distinct from those suffering from it. If you didn't sleep because of the noise of the thing you are using you would think twice. Typical NIMBY problems. It's the same with the stupid electric scooters and bikes which get dumped all over the place and clutter the streets, but those streets are usually not where those people live who use them.
- user_7832 5y ago
  I agree that the 2 groups are often very distinct (though I have been almost hit by speeding delivery bikes only too often as any Dutchie would complain about). I am cognizant of the issues, I just wish the cos. would work with and talk to the residents instead of unilaterally themselves going about setting up shop.
- lucb1e 5y ago
  At the same time, I'd much rather have electric transportation devices strewn across the street, than cars (especially the smoking kind) on the street rushing by all day long as they currently are. The number of accidents with these 1000kg blocks of aluminium (more if it's electric) or their energy needs for individual whims... we're going to be 8 billion people soon, smaller individual transport is not a bad thing. If something needs to be done about the placement, well, we have plenty of space over if we could convert even just 50% of the roads to something other than broad slabs of obstruction-free flat space. (Edit: I'm not the downvoter. I don't agree but that doesn't make it a nonuseful perspective.) Edit#2: Observing the votes on this comment, presumably from car lovers/haters, is quite interesting. Not sure it's a good sign if I wrote engaging but not generally agreeable content.
  - consp 5y ago
    If those things would be operated like bikes/scooters people own themselves sure as that usually means some form of restraint. The problem is that these are not and are put in places where the do not belong like in front of doors or the middle of the curb blocking the path for everyone. People don't care and the businesses use public space like it's their own parking space to the detriment of others and there is little to no penalty for abuse. That is a general problem with the ride sharing with small transportation as well as with these stores: As long as you only reap the benefits it's less likely to see the problems associated and felt by others.
DoingIsLearning 5y ago
> When I'm tired and out of time Without wanting to pass judgement but as someone who experienced burnout in past positions, if you don't have the time or energy to do some form of weekly shopping (even if online) and cook some food, it feels to me that the solution is that you need to work less and rest more, rather than rely on 10 min delivery because you're mentally drained to do anything else.
- user_7832 5y ago
  Oh for sure I need to get my life in order (I'm still a student albeit at a masters level), though I think a am pending a diagnosis of a medical condition that affects energy and motivation a lot :)
- aaron695 5y ago
- lucb1e 5y ago
  > the solution is that you need to work less and rest more, rather than rely on 10 min delivery because you're mentally drained That is presumably the goal of everyone in such a situation. In the meantime, it can help them get through it (I'm thinking of having a newborn here in particular, but there are also various other stressing times in an average life), though it makes me wonder if this inadvertently/indirectly supports this state of being because there is less incentive to change it back to something more healthy. Edit: For my future reference, this comment is nonconstructive how? (Sometimes I wonder what the effect would be of showing the downvote button only after a comment has any replies at all, anything that's bad enough not to engage with should be flagged after all, but then it's very hard to measure objectively if that makes people get better feedback and use it for the better or not.)
- chapium 5y ago
  This can break down with roommates/partners. You may be wanting to prepare a meal only to find out something you knew you had plenty of is suddenly wiped out. Having a quick delivery service may be a great alternative to someone who is pinched for time and would rather not order out something unhealthy.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
GrumpyNl 5y ago
Buy a fridge and you can order order within 24hrs.
meesterdude 5y ago
> Please speak for yourself. Why the attitude? It's disingenuous to infer they were stating anything other than their opinion.
- user_7832 5y ago
  I do not wish to come across as brutish (though I think you are right and I apologize for any perceived rudeness). OP made a statement along the lines of "These stores are useless". I could of course say that he is wrong or a liar but what I wanted to convey was that his experience was only an experience and not an absolute fact.
- tinus_hn 5y ago
  > But it's rarely useful. This is a judgement, dismissing an idea as ‘not useful’.

awillen 5y ago

It's useful if you're disabled, or your work schedule makes it tough to shop or any number of other reasons. Just because something isn't useful for you doesn't mean it's not useful.

qw 5y ago
You have a valid point, but the article states that they place darks stores in residential areas to decrease the delivery time. There is a need for these services, but we also need to think about all those who are negatively impacted by this. By placing the warehouse outside the residential area, they may increase the delivery time by 15-20 minutes. Isn't that a good enough compromise for the customers? Saving 20 minutes on grocery delivery is not worth the human cost.
- mvanbaak 5y ago
  They will switch to cars for delivery. No thanks. I agree that the current situation is bad. How about using all those empty properties in ahopping centra?
mnd999 5y ago
That’s a pretty small market that in no way justifies pumping enormous amounts of VC cash into putting convenience stores out of business.
elsjaako 5y ago
A lot of the supermarkets in the Netherlands have delivery options, without all the nuisance. It's just that you have to think in hours, not minutes, for delivery.

rapfaria 5y ago

Last New Years Eve I was cooking with my SO and among other things, we were planning on having rice. I realized at that point that I had bought brown rice by mistake, instead of white rice (small package, both look the same around here). 10 minutes later we had white rice from one these dark stores. That one time it was really useful.

bombcar 5y ago
I’ve had a similar experience - was out of something for Christmas dinner iirc, and five minutes later I had it after running over to the 24-hr gas station which has a surprisingly large convenience store.
pxtail 5y ago
Damn, that's the dedication - triggering whole complex operation where multiple people and systems are engaged and consume energy just to get slightly different kind of rice.
- nomdep 5y ago
  A completely different kind of rice. I love regular white rice, but find disgusting the texture and flavor of brown rice.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- renewiltord 5y ago
  That’s nothing. Think about the immense scale of operation required just to let you instantly comment on someone relating that story. We have massive ships that roam the seas to keep your connectivity alive.
  - pxtail 5y ago
    [flagged]
- 5y ago

k1rac 5y ago

Its very useful for couples with kids living in the center of a city.