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> As an operator the last thing I want is devs to throw whatever they write over the wall and then say "not my problem anymore!", and have to rely on getting re

> As an operator the last thing I want is devs to throw whatever they write over the wall and then say "not my problem anymore!", and have to rely on getting retrained every time the code changes. And as a dev I wouldn't want to be in an organization that accepts sloppy developers who aren't responsible for building solid code that can run under adverse conditions and who don't get to experience the issues in production for themselves. How can you classify anybody who writes on-prem software as being a "sloppy developer"? Jira, Jenkins, GitLab, pretty much any database you can imagine (MySQL, PostgreSQL, Redis, Elasticsearch, Kafka...), Grafana, any Linux distribution, they're all written by "sloppy developers"? Where did I say that Dev gets to "throw code over the wall"? How would you feel if I unilaterally decided for you, as a developer, which tools you get to use? If I came up with some policy that the whole organization can only run Windows machines and I "threw that policy over the wall" at you? You're arguing against a strawman that's completely inconsistent with how harmonious follow-the-sun Ops actually works.

jedberg 5y ago
I would not call follow the sun ops as harmonious. If anything I'd call it adversarial. Ops is always trying to blame dev for outages and dev is always trying to blame ops. Each accuses the other of not sharing all the necessary information. Look at all that on-prem software you just mentioned. The developers of every one of those complain that they need better bug reports, and the people who operate them complain they need better documentation. Things would be much better if those devs worked directly for every company that uses them, and in fact in a lot of cases one of the contributors is an operator at a company. Why do you think companies like to hire open source devs? To get better access to someone who knows the codebase! It's far better if the operator is the developer. Sometimes we live with that not being the case because the software is made by others. But when given the choice, I will always opt for the dev running the software themselves.

jedberg 5y ago

I would not call follow the sun ops as harmonious. If anything I'd call it adversarial. Ops is always trying to blame dev for outages and dev is always trying to blame ops. Each accuses the other of not sharing all the necessary information. Look at all that on-prem software you just mentioned. The developers of every one of those complain that they need better bug reports, and the people who operate them complain they need better documentation. Things would be much better if those devs worked directly for every company that uses them, and in fact in a lot of cases one of the contributors is an operator at a company. Why do you think companies like to hire open source devs? To get better access to someone who knows the codebase! It's far better if the operator is the developer. Sometimes we live with that not being the case because the software is made by others. But when given the choice, I will always opt for the dev running the software themselves.