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Your impression comes from the fact that you have not worked at larger teams, as you said so yourself. It's relatively easy to build something scalable from the

Your impression comes from the fact that you have not worked at larger teams, as you said so yourself. It's relatively easy to build something scalable from the beginning if you know what you need to build and if you are not already handling large amounts of traffic and data. It's a whole different ballgame to build on top of an existing complex system already in production that was made to satisfy the needs at the time it was built but it now needs to support other features, bug fixes and supporting existing features but at scale while having 50+ engineers not step on each other and not break each others code in the process. 4 friends in the basement will not achieve more than 50+ engineers in this scenario, even when considering the inefficiencies of the difficulty in communication that come along with so many minds working on the same thing.

ratww 5y ago
GP said they have never work on something that truly needed 50+ engineers. Truly being the keyword here IMO. I have worked on a 1000+ engineer project and another that was 500+, but I'm on the same boat as GP. Both of those didn't needed 50+, and the presence of the extra 950/450 caused several communication, organisational and architectural issues that became impossible to fix on the long term. So I can definitely see where they're coming from.
- exikyut 5y ago
  I've long wondered what I might be able to keep an eye out for during onboarding/transfer that would help me tell overstuffed kitchens apart from optimally-calibrated engineering caves from a distance. I'm also admittedly extremely curious what (broadly) had 1000 (and 500) engineers dedicated to it, when arguably only 50 were needed. Abstractly speaking that sounds a lot like coordinational/planning micromanagement, where the manglement had final say on how much effort needed to be expended where instead of allowing engineering to own the resource allocation process :/ (Am I describing the patently impossible? Not yet had experience in these types of environments)
  - ratww 5y ago
    > a lot like coordinational/planning micromanagement, where the manglement had final say on how much effort needed to be expended where instead of allowing engineering to own the resource allocation process Yep, that's a fair assessment! The 1000+ one was an ERP for mid-large businesses. They had 10 or so flagship products (all acquired) and wanted to consolidate it all into a single one. The failure was more on trying to join the 10 teams together (and including lots of field-only implementation consultants in the bunch), rather than picking a solid foundation that they already owned and handpicking what needed. The 500+ was an online marketplace. They had that many people because that was a condition imposed by investors. People ended up owning parts of a screen, so something that was a "two-man in a sprint" ended up being a whole team. It was demoralising but I still like the company. I don't think it's impossible to notice, but it's hard... you can ask during interviews about numbers of employees, what each one does, ask for examples of what each team does on a daily basis. Honestly 100, 500, 1000 people for a company is not really a lot, but 100, 500, 1000 for a single project is definitely a red flag for me now, and anyone trying to pull the "but think of the scale!!!" card is a bullshit artist.
    - exikyut 5y ago
      Yay, I'm learning :D > trying to join the 10 teams together oh no (insert https://webcomicname.com/ https://webcomicname.com/ here) > rather than picking a solid foundation that they already owned and handpicking what needed. Mmmm. I wonder if a close alternative (notwithstanding lack of context to optimally calibrate ideas off of) might have involved leaving all the engineers alone to compare notes for 6-12 months with the singular top-down goal of "decide what components and teams do what best." That could be interesting... but it leans very heavily on preexisting competence, initiative and proactivity (not to mention conflict resolution >:D), and is probably a bit spherical-cow... > The 500+ was an online marketplace. They had that many people because that was a condition imposed by investors. *Constructs getaway vehicle in spare time* AAAAAaaaaaa Sad engineering face :< > I don't think it's impossible to notice, but it's hard... you can ask during interviews about numbers of employees, what each one does, ask for examples of what each team does on a daily basis. Noted. Thanks. > Honestly 100, 500, 1000 people for a company is not really a lot, but 100, 500, 1000 for a single project is definitely a red flag for me now, and anyone trying to pull the "but think of the scale!!!" card is a bullshit artist. That makes a lot of sense, and also filed away. Also, I recently read this which resonates quite strongly with the economy-of-efficiency scale problem (which I totally agree with): https://rachelbythebay.com/w/2022/01/26/swcbbs/ https://rachelbythebay.com/w/2022/01/26/swcbbs/, and the update, https://rachelbythebay.com/w/2022/01/27/scale/ https://rachelbythebay.com/w/2022/01/27/scale/
fragmede 5y ago
Yeah, exactly. There is overhead simply because of the (necessary) cross-communication at that scale, and there's overhead from legacy support, but here's a thought experiment. Imagine that you've built the most perfect system from scratch that you can think of. Fast forward five years, and the business has pivoted so many times that system is doing all sorts of stuff it just wasn't designed for, and it's creaky and old. It just doesn't fit right anymore and even you want to throw it away and build a new one. So you form a tiger team full of the smartest people you know to greenfield build a new one, from scratch, but that's gonna take two years to write. (You think, hey, maybe we could just take this open source thing and adapt it to our purposes. To which I say, where do you think large open source projects come from‽) How do you bridge the two systems? You build an interim system. But customers want new features, so those features need to be done twice (bridge+new) if you're lucky, three times (existing+interim+new) if not. Could a smaller team of 10x engineers come in and do better? First off, thanks for insulting all of us, as if none of us are 10x-ers. But no. There's simply not enough hours in the day. We've all heard of large IT projects that failed to land and said "of course". But we don't hear about the huge ones that do. And plenty of them do land, quite succesfully, with these 200+ person teams where I, as an SRE, don't know the code for the system I'm supporting. None of this is visible from the outside.

ratww 5y ago

GP said they have never work on something that truly needed 50+ engineers. Truly being the keyword here IMO. I have worked on a 1000+ engineer project and another that was 500+, but I'm on the same boat as GP. Both of those didn't needed 50+, and the presence of the extra 950/450 caused several communication, organisational and architectural issues that became impossible to fix on the long term. So I can definitely see where they're coming from.

exikyut 5y ago
I've long wondered what I might be able to keep an eye out for during onboarding/transfer that would help me tell overstuffed kitchens apart from optimally-calibrated engineering caves from a distance. I'm also admittedly extremely curious what (broadly) had 1000 (and 500) engineers dedicated to it, when arguably only 50 were needed. Abstractly speaking that sounds a lot like coordinational/planning micromanagement, where the manglement had final say on how much effort needed to be expended where instead of allowing engineering to own the resource allocation process :/ (Am I describing the patently impossible? Not yet had experience in these types of environments)
- ratww 5y ago
  > a lot like coordinational/planning micromanagement, where the manglement had final say on how much effort needed to be expended where instead of allowing engineering to own the resource allocation process Yep, that's a fair assessment! The 1000+ one was an ERP for mid-large businesses. They had 10 or so flagship products (all acquired) and wanted to consolidate it all into a single one. The failure was more on trying to join the 10 teams together (and including lots of field-only implementation consultants in the bunch), rather than picking a solid foundation that they already owned and handpicking what needed. The 500+ was an online marketplace. They had that many people because that was a condition imposed by investors. People ended up owning parts of a screen, so something that was a "two-man in a sprint" ended up being a whole team. It was demoralising but I still like the company. I don't think it's impossible to notice, but it's hard... you can ask during interviews about numbers of employees, what each one does, ask for examples of what each team does on a daily basis. Honestly 100, 500, 1000 people for a company is not really a lot, but 100, 500, 1000 for a single project is definitely a red flag for me now, and anyone trying to pull the "but think of the scale!!!" card is a bullshit artist.
  - exikyut 5y ago
    Yay, I'm learning :D > trying to join the 10 teams together oh no (insert https://webcomicname.com/ https://webcomicname.com/ here) > rather than picking a solid foundation that they already owned and handpicking what needed. Mmmm. I wonder if a close alternative (notwithstanding lack of context to optimally calibrate ideas off of) might have involved leaving all the engineers alone to compare notes for 6-12 months with the singular top-down goal of "decide what components and teams do what best." That could be interesting... but it leans very heavily on preexisting competence, initiative and proactivity (not to mention conflict resolution >:D), and is probably a bit spherical-cow... > The 500+ was an online marketplace. They had that many people because that was a condition imposed by investors. *Constructs getaway vehicle in spare time* AAAAAaaaaaa Sad engineering face :< > I don't think it's impossible to notice, but it's hard... you can ask during interviews about numbers of employees, what each one does, ask for examples of what each team does on a daily basis. Noted. Thanks. > Honestly 100, 500, 1000 people for a company is not really a lot, but 100, 500, 1000 for a single project is definitely a red flag for me now, and anyone trying to pull the "but think of the scale!!!" card is a bullshit artist. That makes a lot of sense, and also filed away. Also, I recently read this which resonates quite strongly with the economy-of-efficiency scale problem (which I totally agree with): https://rachelbythebay.com/w/2022/01/26/swcbbs/ https://rachelbythebay.com/w/2022/01/26/swcbbs/, and the update, https://rachelbythebay.com/w/2022/01/27/scale/ https://rachelbythebay.com/w/2022/01/27/scale/

fragmede 5y ago

Yeah, exactly. There is overhead simply because of the (necessary) cross-communication at that scale, and there's overhead from legacy support, but here's a thought experiment. Imagine that you've built the most perfect system from scratch that you can think of. Fast forward five years, and the business has pivoted so many times that system is doing all sorts of stuff it just wasn't designed for, and it's creaky and old. It just doesn't fit right anymore and even you want to throw it away and build a new one. So you form a tiger team full of the smartest people you know to greenfield build a new one, from scratch, but that's gonna take two years to write. (You think, hey, maybe we could just take this open source thing and adapt it to our purposes. To which I say, where do you think large open source projects come from‽) How do you bridge the two systems? You build an interim system. But customers want new features, so those features need to be done twice (bridge+new) if you're lucky, three times (existing+interim+new) if not. Could a smaller team of 10x engineers come in and do better? First off, thanks for insulting all of us, as if none of us are 10x-ers. But no. There's simply not enough hours in the day. We've all heard of large IT projects that failed to land and said "of course". But we don't hear about the huge ones that do. And plenty of them do land, quite succesfully, with these 200+ person teams where I, as an SRE, don't know the code for the system I'm supporting. None of this is visible from the outside.