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That’s just not true. We’ve done this and it has led to the destruction of the family and further impoverishment of many people. We shouldn’t continue doing thi

That’s just not true. We’ve done this and it has led to the destruction of the family and further impoverishment of many people. We shouldn’t continue doing things that have failed. The Moynihan Report explored this in the 1960’s and has predicted where we are today. And although it was related to black Americans at the time it is very easily generalized to everyone. Just giving people money forever will only cause destruction.

njacobs5074 5y ago
> Just giving people money forever will only cause destruction. Would you agree that this is equally true for someone who comes from a wealthy family and has a trust fund that essentially guarantees that they will be "given money", usually in the form of capital gains, forever?
- nemo44x 5y ago
  I would say that giving your kids a bag of money so they don’t have to do anything wound generally be a bad idea. I think Bill Gates said he gives his kids enough money so that they don’t have to do anything for money but that they do have to do something or something like that. In the end, people need to be meaningful participants in their own lives.
  - nyhc99 5y ago
    Have you ever seen a UBI proposal that would give people so much money that they don't have to do anything? We would never be able to come up with that much money to give out. It's more like giving them even less money than Bill Gates gives his kids, so they still have to work, but they "don’t have to do anything for money but that they do have to do something" as you put it.
    - nemo44x 5y ago
      Right but it’s about the values put into you as you’re raised. There’s a big difference there.
djrobstep 5y ago
You've provided a perfect example for the kind of charlatanism I mentioned in the last paragraph - well done. In fact, welfare works great, both in the US, where Social Security has saved millions from poverty, and in many other countries. You'll find that in all of these countries, families continue to exist, so take your conservative talking points about destruction of the family are pure ideological nonsense.
- nemo44x 5y ago
  Just because you say it doesn’t make it true. We literally see the divergence in family stability and welfare adoption. From there we see the effects as it leads to generational poverty, crime, etc. The data and facts are simply not on your side.
  - djrobstep 5y ago
    Actually, they are. The more welfare, the less poverty - everywhere. Look it up.
zozbot234 5y ago
> That's just not true. We've done this I really have to disagree there. We have simply never tried to give people money in ways that, like UBI or the Negative Income Tax, carefully preserve good incentives and thus good overall outcomes while avoiding costly 'red tape' that only lets people fall through the cracks. What little research has been done on more effective arrangements for income redistribution in developed countries has actually shown remarkably positive results. And the evidence in lower-income countries is even more remarkable.
- nemo44x 5y ago
  We have too sone this with Welfare. It destroyed generations of people. The idea that when doing something harmful we should have done it bigger is absurd. People need meaningful lives. Giving them a bag of money doesn’t do that and it makes them dependent. Give people skills and self empowerment. Not free money.
  - maxerickson 5y ago
    Making children live in deprivation because their parents had bad luck or made a mistake doesn't create meaning. It's kind of silly that there is so much discussion of giving away money when we can't even bother to structure healthcare provision in a way that makes sense (It shouldn't be hard to get Medicaid and there shouldn't be a cliff...).
    - mrep 5y ago
      The US is already sending out checks to all parents. How much more do you think it should be?
      - maxerickson 5y ago
        It clearly would have been good to keep the child tax credit expansion that expired in December in place. So at least that much more.
    - fellowniusmonk 5y ago
Kinrany 5y ago
The Moynihan Report: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Negro_Family%3A_The_Case_For_National_Action https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Negro_Family%3A_The_Case_F... It seems to conflate changes in family structure with prosperity and is based on shaky assumptions about the relationship between them. It remains controversial. I don't see why it would generalize well.
- nemo44x 5y ago
  That’s what was said about it in the early 60’s. The problem is we have 50+ years of evidence that shows it was right. The Moynihan Scissors is real.
- nemo44x 5y ago
  This refutes your thoughts on the matter: https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/was-the-moynihan-report-right-sobering-findings-after-1965-study-is-revisited/2013/06/13/80eac980-d432-11e2-b05f-3ea3f0e7bb5a_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/was-the-moynihan-report...
  - klarstrup 5y ago
    "criminal laws that disproportionately penalized black males, sent them to jail for long periods of time and hurt their potential to find jobs, earn money, and support their families when released"
naasking 5y ago
No, we've done highly bureaucratic, dehumanizing but targeted means-tested programs. Those are very different than just giving poor people money through progressive taxation or other means. Just giving cash has been tried only very recently, and with generally positive results so far.

njacobs5074 5y ago

> Just giving people money forever will only cause destruction. Would you agree that this is equally true for someone who comes from a wealthy family and has a trust fund that essentially guarantees that they will be "given money", usually in the form of capital gains, forever?

nemo44x 5y ago
I would say that giving your kids a bag of money so they don’t have to do anything wound generally be a bad idea. I think Bill Gates said he gives his kids enough money so that they don’t have to do anything for money but that they do have to do something or something like that. In the end, people need to be meaningful participants in their own lives.
- nyhc99 5y ago
  Have you ever seen a UBI proposal that would give people so much money that they don't have to do anything? We would never be able to come up with that much money to give out. It's more like giving them even less money than Bill Gates gives his kids, so they still have to work, but they "don’t have to do anything for money but that they do have to do something" as you put it.
  - nemo44x 5y ago
    Right but it’s about the values put into you as you’re raised. There’s a big difference there.

djrobstep 5y ago

You've provided a perfect example for the kind of charlatanism I mentioned in the last paragraph - well done. In fact, welfare works great, both in the US, where Social Security has saved millions from poverty, and in many other countries. You'll find that in all of these countries, families continue to exist, so take your conservative talking points about destruction of the family are pure ideological nonsense.

nemo44x 5y ago
Just because you say it doesn’t make it true. We literally see the divergence in family stability and welfare adoption. From there we see the effects as it leads to generational poverty, crime, etc. The data and facts are simply not on your side.
- djrobstep 5y ago
  Actually, they are. The more welfare, the less poverty - everywhere. Look it up.

zozbot234 5y ago

> That's just not true. We've done this I really have to disagree there. We have simply never tried to give people money in ways that, like UBI or the Negative Income Tax, carefully preserve good incentives and thus good overall outcomes while avoiding costly 'red tape' that only lets people fall through the cracks. What little research has been done on more effective arrangements for income redistribution in developed countries has actually shown remarkably positive results. And the evidence in lower-income countries is even more remarkable.

nemo44x 5y ago
We have too sone this with Welfare. It destroyed generations of people. The idea that when doing something harmful we should have done it bigger is absurd. People need meaningful lives. Giving them a bag of money doesn’t do that and it makes them dependent. Give people skills and self empowerment. Not free money.
- maxerickson 5y ago
  Making children live in deprivation because their parents had bad luck or made a mistake doesn't create meaning. It's kind of silly that there is so much discussion of giving away money when we can't even bother to structure healthcare provision in a way that makes sense (It shouldn't be hard to get Medicaid and there shouldn't be a cliff...).
  - mrep 5y ago
    The US is already sending out checks to all parents. How much more do you think it should be?
    - maxerickson 5y ago
      It clearly would have been good to keep the child tax credit expansion that expired in December in place. So at least that much more.
  - fellowniusmonk 5y ago

Kinrany 5y ago

The Moynihan Report: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Negro_Family%3A_The_Case_For_National_Action https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Negro_Family%3A_The_Case_F... It seems to conflate changes in family structure with prosperity and is based on shaky assumptions about the relationship between them. It remains controversial. I don't see why it would generalize well.

nemo44x 5y ago
That’s what was said about it in the early 60’s. The problem is we have 50+ years of evidence that shows it was right. The Moynihan Scissors is real.
nemo44x 5y ago
This refutes your thoughts on the matter: https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/was-the-moynihan-report-right-sobering-findings-after-1965-study-is-revisited/2013/06/13/80eac980-d432-11e2-b05f-3ea3f0e7bb5a_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/was-the-moynihan-report...
- klarstrup 5y ago
  "criminal laws that disproportionately penalized black males, sent them to jail for long periods of time and hurt their potential to find jobs, earn money, and support their families when released"

naasking 5y ago

No, we've done highly bureaucratic, dehumanizing but targeted means-tested programs. Those are very different than just giving poor people money through progressive taxation or other means. Just giving cash has been tried only very recently, and with generally positive results so far.