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> And those apps, probably upwards of 99.999999% of them will be unsafe. Apps are sandboxed, so the damage should be limited to only the exploited app. Pegasu

> And those apps, probably upwards of 99.999999% of them will be unsafe. Apps are sandboxed, so the damage should be limited to only the exploited app. Pegasus exploits exploited iMessage et al, which are Apple's own apps with special permissions.

antihero 5y ago
Is there a way to rescind said permissions?
- saagarjha 5y ago
  Short of not using those apps, no.
bilbo0s 5y ago
Again, from the perspective of a cyber security expert, all that is great! Or rather would be great if Pegasus was the only 0-day out there. It'd be even better if Pegasus were the only 0-click out there. Here's the thing though, it's not. That's the world we live in. So the question is, given that fact, how do we get to a world where we can have some level of security? My belief is that everyone from the users to the app devs have to adopt a security mindset. Users should not download that free app that lets you see what you would look like as your favorite French pastry. They should not click on the link in that sms they got from that strange phone number. They should be careful about giving out their phone number. Give everyone your gmail google phone number instead and let them send texts to that. Then check those texts on your gmail google phone if you're a high profile target. (Or even just a guy/gal who has a few people out there who really don't like them.) Keep a buffer between the world and your phone. Etc etc etc. Devs want access to the file system. Awesome, but they'd better make sure in using that filesystem they are not inadvertently allowing users to take any actions deleterious to the system. Devs want access to the GPU. Again, no problem. But you'd better know how to write secure GPU code. There is no way a browser, or .NET, or Python or an OS can provide you access to a GPU "safely". If they give you the gun, they expect you will use it responsibly. Browsers and other platform providers should also act responsibly. I understand developers want features. At the same time, is it responsible to hand out access to these features without some kind of plan to keep irresponsible devs from compromising security at scale? Sometimes there just is no way to do that, and I understand. (Access to the GPU is an example. Devs just have to know what they're doing.) But sometimes it is possible to do things in a more secure fashion, or to just wait on delivering that feature altogether. Point is, for a secure environment, everyone has to play their part. There are so many of these 0-clicks and 0-days out there in the wild. Everyone wants to make a better environment. Well, I'm not seeing how that happens without getting everyone's cooperation. Or, at a minimum, getting everyone to be a bit more careful with their behaviors.
- saagarjha 5y ago
  Do you have concrete examples of how a developer could, say, write secure code to run on the GPU?
ec109685 5y ago
What special permissions were used to enable the attack? AFAIK, the hacker broke out of the sandbox in addition to rooting iMessage. Also, the surface area available to a sandbox is too large. Firecracker like VM isolation is required for safety, which Apple seems to be moving towards when it comes to parsing from their apps at least.

antihero 5y ago

Is there a way to rescind said permissions?

saagarjha 5y ago
Short of not using those apps, no.

bilbo0s 5y ago

Again, from the perspective of a cyber security expert, all that is great! Or rather would be great if Pegasus was the only 0-day out there. It'd be even better if Pegasus were the only 0-click out there. Here's the thing though, it's not. That's the world we live in. So the question is, given that fact, how do we get to a world where we can have some level of security? My belief is that everyone from the users to the app devs have to adopt a security mindset. Users should not download that free app that lets you see what you would look like as your favorite French pastry. They should not click on the link in that sms they got from that strange phone number. They should be careful about giving out their phone number. Give everyone your gmail google phone number instead and let them send texts to that. Then check those texts on your gmail google phone if you're a high profile target. (Or even just a guy/gal who has a few people out there who really don't like them.) Keep a buffer between the world and your phone. Etc etc etc. Devs want access to the file system. Awesome, but they'd better make sure in using that filesystem they are not inadvertently allowing users to take any actions deleterious to the system. Devs want access to the GPU. Again, no problem. But you'd better know how to write secure GPU code. There is no way a browser, or .NET, or Python or an OS can provide you access to a GPU "safely". If they give you the gun, they expect you will use it responsibly. Browsers and other platform providers should also act responsibly. I understand developers want features. At the same time, is it responsible to hand out access to these features without some kind of plan to keep irresponsible devs from compromising security at scale? Sometimes there just is no way to do that, and I understand. (Access to the GPU is an example. Devs just have to know what they're doing.) But sometimes it is possible to do things in a more secure fashion, or to just wait on delivering that feature altogether. Point is, for a secure environment, everyone has to play their part. There are so many of these 0-clicks and 0-days out there in the wild. Everyone wants to make a better environment. Well, I'm not seeing how that happens without getting everyone's cooperation. Or, at a minimum, getting everyone to be a bit more careful with their behaviors.

saagarjha 5y ago
Do you have concrete examples of how a developer could, say, write secure code to run on the GPU?

ec109685 5y ago

What special permissions were used to enable the attack? AFAIK, the hacker broke out of the sandbox in addition to rooting iMessage. Also, the surface area available to a sandbox is too large. Firecracker like VM isolation is required for safety, which Apple seems to be moving towards when it comes to parsing from their apps at least.