3 ms·

The whole issue is basically because of two factors. 1. After WWII Ukraine made a verbal agreement not to join NATO/EU, but now it wants to, meaning they want

The whole issue is basically because of two factors. 1. After WWII Ukraine made a verbal agreement not to join NATO/EU, but now it wants to, meaning they want to break the verbal agreement, which of course the other party (Russia) does not like. 2. USA placing rockets next to the Russian border in Poland, which would probably also be done in Ukraine, if it joins NATO/EU. I would say that if USA removed itself and their forces from EU, all of this war/invasion stuff probably wouldn't be happening. I don't want war or anything similar to it, I'm more on the side of legalise weed so that everyone can just chill the f down. BUT I would probably be pretty angry and panic if my neighbor would start placing rockets on the border. I'm not saying that what Russia is doing is right or that I agree with them, but objectivity looking, their actions are reasonable, it makes sense. Regarding what will happen or what would happen. In an ideal world NATO and UN would react as soon as a war broke out and hopefully stoping the war as soon as possible. I hope that in the future there will come a day where military will exist only for events and parades. EDIT: Sofixa corrected me, it's not Belarus but Poland! Not sure how this slipped my mind, but yeah...

tonyedgecombe 5y ago
>I would say that if USA removed itself and their forces from EU, all of this war/invasion stuff probably wouldn't be happening. I'm not sure about that, it could be with out the US in Europe they would be bolder.
sofixa 5y ago
You're spectacularly wrong on multiple points. After WWII Ukraine was a part of the Soviet Union. The verbal agreement was about NATO, and after the fall of the Soviet Union in the 1990s, and is the same one as Russia agreeing to respect Ukrainian autonomy ( because the deal was about Ukraine giving up the nuclear weapons it inherited from the Soviets). US weapons deployments in Poland, not Belarus ( which is for all intents and purposes a Russian puppet), are mostly of defensive nature ( antimissile defense), but yes, they're obviously aimed at Russia. That being said, you are right that Russia's actions are "reasonable" from a geopolitical point of view - they don't want to be isolated with the enemy at their borders, so they act. It's still a travesty and humanitarian disaster in the making.
- dandanua 5y ago
  Russia's actions are "reasonable" only if you believe that killing or enslaving your neighbors and seizing their property is the normal way of living a life.
  - sofixa 5y ago
    "Reasonable from a geopolitical point of view". If it were a board strategic game, if you will. From a humanitarian point of view, it's a travesty.
    - Scea91 5y ago
      But this is NOT a board strategy game. Would you call Germany attacking Poland or France reasonable? You can't just call shameless aggression reasonable and implicitly assume that the "board strategy game viewpoint" (whatever it is) is the default one we should use.
  - Ekaros 5y ago
    Reasonable if you remember the lessons of 19th and 20th centuries and even earlier. Western Europe has long been aggressor, just remember the Hitler, Napoleon and so on. Even Great Britain. And it is not like these imperialist nations have changed just look at their actions in Africa in 21st century... A sane country must protect themselves from those well known bad actors. A buffer is needed to stop them from enslaving and seizing property, which historically they are well known to attempt repeatedly...
    - journey_16162 5y ago
      > Reasonable if you remember the lessons of 19th and 20th centuries and even earlier. Western Europe has long been aggressor > A sane country must protect themselves from those well known bad actors. let's not forget that Russia's history puts it right there with "aggressors and bad actors". 19th and 20th century Russia: 1) Kept Poland under occupation for 123 years until 1918 (together with Prussia and Austria) 2) Attacked Poland in 1920 (and failed) 3) Attacked Poland in September 1939, they had agreement with Hitler about how to split Poland between themselves. 4) Enforced their shitty political system on their neighbors for over 40 years.
dandanua 5y ago
> After WWII Ukraine made a verbal agreement not to join NATO/EU. You have no idea what you're talking about. Just stop it, please. Also, look at the map and try to guess where the border between Poland and Russia is located.
NicoJuicy 5y ago
Times change. During those 70 years, Ukraine wants to move away from Russia as many others. Even when Russia agreed ( not verbally, but in writing) that Ukraine was autonomous and after the Revolution of Dignity in 2013 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_of_Dignity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_of_Dignity ) it was clear that Russia has no more role to play in Ukraine. Russia didn't expect Democracy in Ukraine and doesn't like it. Additionally, Ukraine could block their naval fleet of going out. The defensive actions of the EU are justified, Russia has been testing war responses every year for many years. Through planes, fleet and even killing people in foreign countries ( widely documented). What they just now did, just proofs that improving defensive capabilities is the right call now and will be so in the future.
ridethebike 5y ago
> After WWII Ukraine made a verbal agreement not to join NATO/EU Thanks for reminding why I try to stay away from [geo]politics/military opinions on hacker news.
- LoveMortuus 5y ago
  Yeah, when I found out that it was just a verbal agreement I was quite surprised too. To me if it ain't written it doesn't exist. Which is why I write everything down that's important, but most just because I would forget otherwise...

tonyedgecombe 5y ago

>I would say that if USA removed itself and their forces from EU, all of this war/invasion stuff probably wouldn't be happening. I'm not sure about that, it could be with out the US in Europe they would be bolder.

sofixa 5y ago

You're spectacularly wrong on multiple points. After WWII Ukraine was a part of the Soviet Union. The verbal agreement was about NATO, and after the fall of the Soviet Union in the 1990s, and is the same one as Russia agreeing to respect Ukrainian autonomy ( because the deal was about Ukraine giving up the nuclear weapons it inherited from the Soviets). US weapons deployments in Poland, not Belarus ( which is for all intents and purposes a Russian puppet), are mostly of defensive nature ( antimissile defense), but yes, they're obviously aimed at Russia. That being said, you are right that Russia's actions are "reasonable" from a geopolitical point of view - they don't want to be isolated with the enemy at their borders, so they act. It's still a travesty and humanitarian disaster in the making.

dandanua 5y ago
Russia's actions are "reasonable" only if you believe that killing or enslaving your neighbors and seizing their property is the normal way of living a life.
- sofixa 5y ago
  "Reasonable from a geopolitical point of view". If it were a board strategic game, if you will. From a humanitarian point of view, it's a travesty.
  - Scea91 5y ago
    But this is NOT a board strategy game. Would you call Germany attacking Poland or France reasonable? You can't just call shameless aggression reasonable and implicitly assume that the "board strategy game viewpoint" (whatever it is) is the default one we should use.
- Ekaros 5y ago
  Reasonable if you remember the lessons of 19th and 20th centuries and even earlier. Western Europe has long been aggressor, just remember the Hitler, Napoleon and so on. Even Great Britain. And it is not like these imperialist nations have changed just look at their actions in Africa in 21st century... A sane country must protect themselves from those well known bad actors. A buffer is needed to stop them from enslaving and seizing property, which historically they are well known to attempt repeatedly...
  - journey_16162 5y ago
    > Reasonable if you remember the lessons of 19th and 20th centuries and even earlier. Western Europe has long been aggressor > A sane country must protect themselves from those well known bad actors. let's not forget that Russia's history puts it right there with "aggressors and bad actors". 19th and 20th century Russia: 1) Kept Poland under occupation for 123 years until 1918 (together with Prussia and Austria) 2) Attacked Poland in 1920 (and failed) 3) Attacked Poland in September 1939, they had agreement with Hitler about how to split Poland between themselves. 4) Enforced their shitty political system on their neighbors for over 40 years.

dandanua 5y ago

> After WWII Ukraine made a verbal agreement not to join NATO/EU. You have no idea what you're talking about. Just stop it, please. Also, look at the map and try to guess where the border between Poland and Russia is located.

NicoJuicy 5y ago

Times change. During those 70 years, Ukraine wants to move away from Russia as many others. Even when Russia agreed ( not verbally, but in writing) that Ukraine was autonomous and after the Revolution of Dignity in 2013 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_of_Dignity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_of_Dignity ) it was clear that Russia has no more role to play in Ukraine. Russia didn't expect Democracy in Ukraine and doesn't like it. Additionally, Ukraine could block their naval fleet of going out. The defensive actions of the EU are justified, Russia has been testing war responses every year for many years. Through planes, fleet and even killing people in foreign countries ( widely documented). What they just now did, just proofs that improving defensive capabilities is the right call now and will be so in the future.

ridethebike 5y ago

> After WWII Ukraine made a verbal agreement not to join NATO/EU Thanks for reminding why I try to stay away from [geo]politics/military opinions on hacker news.

LoveMortuus 5y ago
Yeah, when I found out that it was just a verbal agreement I was quite surprised too. To me if it ain't written it doesn't exist. Which is why I write everything down that's important, but most just because I would forget otherwise...