4 ms·

"visceral disgust" seems like such a superlative reaction to have at this. I didn't realize there was so much McCarthyist fear in the HN community. I wonder t

by cwkoss 5y ago

"visceral disgust" seems like such a superlative reaction to have at this. I didn't realize there was so much McCarthyist fear in the HN community. I wonder to what extent this is new, or if it has always been this way.

cwkoss 5y ago
fknorangesite 5y ago
It is not new.
munk-a 5y ago
HN is a place that attracts professionals of a particular enough field that it has avoided any internal siloing (i.e. Subreddits). Within Tech you can see nearly every political view represented - within SV in particular you'll find a very strong neo-Libretarian movement that's sprung up (in part) due to opposition against taxation - this group in particular is quite strongly anti-socialist. It has (at least for the last five years while I've been here) always been this way - there is a very wide spectrum of humanity represented here.
- WalterBright 5y ago
  Are you sure? When I talk about free markets, I usually get a strong net negative reaction here.
  - munk-a 5y ago
    In stats class in uni we spent a good deal of time discussing the issues with different types of polling. Internet polling was "newish" at that point and so there were interesting debates going on with whether it'd suffer from the same effects as other voluntary polls (TL;DR it does). When a poll is voluntarily responded to, even if the poll is eligible to the entire population you want to poll, you'll end up with some pretty heavy biases - first off the middle is always underrepresented - people who don't have strong feelings on a topic won't bother taking the time to reply and people who aren't familiar with the topic at all will generally (generally there are obviously people who reject this) decline to respond out of shame. So then you're left with the group of supporters and opposers - it turns out that, as a general rule, you should expect an across the board negative bias on any polls: if I asked "Is vanilla ice cream the best ice cream?" I'll end up getting a much stronger response from the people who disagree compared to those that affirm - when it comes to our attention things we don't like naturally draw more of our attention so that accounts for a decent part of the bias... Additionally the status quo tends to be underrepresented because people who are comfortable with the way things are are less likely to view broadcasting that belief as important... in general underdogs fight a lot harder. So, back to your point... when discussing anything on the internet, regardless of the forum, expect the responses to be unrepresentative of the population in general and instead be composed of a higher proportion of dissenters than actually exists. That all said, I do think HN has a notable left-lean. I think technology in general tends to underrepresent strongly religious individuals (there are exceptions: see larry wall) and the tech centers tend to congregate around educational centers which tend to be more liberal than the country as a whole. Lastly, HN prides itself on being (or aspires to be) a relatively politics free zone - so a large number of people will downvote comments just because they lean in either political discussion because they don't want the conversation to turn into a miniature scale representation of modern US politics. So yes, you get a strong reaction when advocating free markets just like other people get strong reactions when advocating socialist policies.
    - WalterBright 5y ago
      Some good points. Thanks!
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - disambiguation 5y ago
    the average temperature is contrarian.
    - erik_seaberg 5y ago
      I try to “yes, and” more often but I find it harder to do constructively, so I usually upvote and move on.
jerry1979 5y ago
I consider myself a leftist, and when I read the article, I also got a very strong feeling of disgust. For whatever reason, I identified mostly with the kids in the article. A few things caught my attention: - The teachers were concocting some way to fix the lego problem. - Their way to fix the problem was to exercise total, unrelenting control. - Their total power was juxtaposed with their bewilderment about the lego problem (this bewilderment was somewhat reminiscent of the "what's a potato" dinner date story from reddit). Is this the first time the lego problem has come up?? Those three things gave me the feeling that, even beyond taking away the legos, something very unfair and very annoying was about to happen. This was confirmed when I got to the part about their twisted waste-of-time game. Do they think the kids learned anything? I actually recall having to play a similar classroom game. I remember being annoyed at the teacher for wasting my time. I hope those kids are part of some longitudinal study, because their recollection of the lego fiasco would be pure gold. Then the kids had to do drawings about power instead of playing with legos!? How can a person with any anti-authority sensibilities react positively to this article?
- BaronVonSteuben 5y ago
  Could not agree with you more. That's what bothered me the most about the article. I consider myself a leftist as well and power dynamics are one of the main things that makes me so. I have a big dislike for most traditional power systems, especially where "power" is inherited (as wealth, but also just connected names that make you a celebrity just for being born). But if the "solution" to leveling out this power is exercising your own to force everyone to conform, the solution is worth than the disease (and in my opinion not necessary as there are better more democratic options out there).
  - jerry1979 5y ago
    I also feel a sense of injustice from unearned authority. The thing is, I like authority when it is earned: the authority of a surgeon in the operating room, the plumber under the sink, the accountant with their spreadsheet. I get the sense that they earned that authority because they already put in the hours and made the mistakes, and now they are ready to fill the space they exist in with competent decisions and well-practiced actions.

by cwkoss 5y ago

cwkoss 5y ago

fknorangesite 5y ago

It is not new.

munk-a 5y ago

HN is a place that attracts professionals of a particular enough field that it has avoided any internal siloing (i.e. Subreddits). Within Tech you can see nearly every political view represented - within SV in particular you'll find a very strong neo-Libretarian movement that's sprung up (in part) due to opposition against taxation - this group in particular is quite strongly anti-socialist. It has (at least for the last five years while I've been here) always been this way - there is a very wide spectrum of humanity represented here.

WalterBright 5y ago
Are you sure? When I talk about free markets, I usually get a strong net negative reaction here.
- munk-a 5y ago
  In stats class in uni we spent a good deal of time discussing the issues with different types of polling. Internet polling was "newish" at that point and so there were interesting debates going on with whether it'd suffer from the same effects as other voluntary polls (TL;DR it does). When a poll is voluntarily responded to, even if the poll is eligible to the entire population you want to poll, you'll end up with some pretty heavy biases - first off the middle is always underrepresented - people who don't have strong feelings on a topic won't bother taking the time to reply and people who aren't familiar with the topic at all will generally (generally there are obviously people who reject this) decline to respond out of shame. So then you're left with the group of supporters and opposers - it turns out that, as a general rule, you should expect an across the board negative bias on any polls: if I asked "Is vanilla ice cream the best ice cream?" I'll end up getting a much stronger response from the people who disagree compared to those that affirm - when it comes to our attention things we don't like naturally draw more of our attention so that accounts for a decent part of the bias... Additionally the status quo tends to be underrepresented because people who are comfortable with the way things are are less likely to view broadcasting that belief as important... in general underdogs fight a lot harder. So, back to your point... when discussing anything on the internet, regardless of the forum, expect the responses to be unrepresentative of the population in general and instead be composed of a higher proportion of dissenters than actually exists. That all said, I do think HN has a notable left-lean. I think technology in general tends to underrepresent strongly religious individuals (there are exceptions: see larry wall) and the tech centers tend to congregate around educational centers which tend to be more liberal than the country as a whole. Lastly, HN prides itself on being (or aspires to be) a relatively politics free zone - so a large number of people will downvote comments just because they lean in either political discussion because they don't want the conversation to turn into a miniature scale representation of modern US politics. So yes, you get a strong reaction when advocating free markets just like other people get strong reactions when advocating socialist policies.
  - WalterBright 5y ago
    Some good points. Thanks!
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- disambiguation 5y ago
  the average temperature is contrarian.
  - erik_seaberg 5y ago
    I try to “yes, and” more often but I find it harder to do constructively, so I usually upvote and move on.

jerry1979 5y ago

I consider myself a leftist, and when I read the article, I also got a very strong feeling of disgust. For whatever reason, I identified mostly with the kids in the article. A few things caught my attention: - The teachers were concocting some way to fix the lego problem. - Their way to fix the problem was to exercise total, unrelenting control. - Their total power was juxtaposed with their bewilderment about the lego problem (this bewilderment was somewhat reminiscent of the "what's a potato" dinner date story from reddit). Is this the first time the lego problem has come up?? Those three things gave me the feeling that, even beyond taking away the legos, something very unfair and very annoying was about to happen. This was confirmed when I got to the part about their twisted waste-of-time game. Do they think the kids learned anything? I actually recall having to play a similar classroom game. I remember being annoyed at the teacher for wasting my time. I hope those kids are part of some longitudinal study, because their recollection of the lego fiasco would be pure gold. Then the kids had to do drawings about power instead of playing with legos!? How can a person with any anti-authority sensibilities react positively to this article?

BaronVonSteuben 5y ago
Could not agree with you more. That's what bothered me the most about the article. I consider myself a leftist as well and power dynamics are one of the main things that makes me so. I have a big dislike for most traditional power systems, especially where "power" is inherited (as wealth, but also just connected names that make you a celebrity just for being born). But if the "solution" to leveling out this power is exercising your own to force everyone to conform, the solution is worth than the disease (and in my opinion not necessary as there are better more democratic options out there).
- jerry1979 5y ago
  I also feel a sense of injustice from unearned authority. The thing is, I like authority when it is earned: the authority of a surgeon in the operating room, the plumber under the sink, the accountant with their spreadsheet. I get the sense that they earned that authority because they already put in the hours and made the mistakes, and now they are ready to fill the space they exist in with competent decisions and well-practiced actions.