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The sentient leopard wouldn't have such pity for you, you're just a meal. While I don't condone free kills either, let's not idealize animals. I wish I could

The sentient leopard wouldn't have such pity for you, you're just a meal. While I don't condone free kills either, let's not idealize animals. I wish I could find the article that dispelled myths about animals (where you among other things learn that dolphins and sea otters have rapists amongst their ranks).

Layke1123 5y ago
Careful, there could be an alien out there thinking the same about what you just wrote.
mauvehaus 5y ago
Sure, but as the species that claims greater intelligence, surely the onus is on the humans to not put themselves into a situation where they become a meal. Blindly shooting at an unknown target doesn't exactly suggest taking this responsibility seriously. I'd have been a-ok with the leopard making a meal of him for his foolishness. If we take it as a given that animals have no morality, or at least different morality than our own, surely it's incumbent upon us to act accordingly among them. Incidentally: while backpacking on Isle Royale, which has a robust wolf/moose ecosystem I asked a ranger why the wolves didn't just eat the plentiful, slow, weak humans instead of the moose. The ranger said humans aren't tasty to wolves.
- jmnicolas 5y ago
  I mostly agree with you, but don't forget that this story happened about a hundred years ago. People had different mentalities back then, less empathy. > The ranger said humans aren't tasty to wolves. I'm pretty sure it's BS. I'd bet more on wolves being afraid of humans (which is a good survival trait! Here in western Europe they have been hunted to extinction). I saw a YT video where a woman is recording a wolf that didn't see her. When it realize she's there, the wolf is startled and runs away.
  - kayodelycaon 5y ago
    Having volunteered at a wolf sanctuary and interacted with a few of the human-friendly ones, they are as skittish as startled deer. Toss a deer leg in the pen and they run for the back fence. Not all though. Some of the “lower ranked” ones realized what was happening and took the opportunity to grab food they usually would have to wait for.
- RcouF1uZ4gsC 5y ago
  > Sure, but as the species that claims greater intelligence, surely the onus is on the humans to not put themselves into a situation where they become a meal. If you look at human history, they have mostly done that by eliminating predatory megafauna. There used to be lions in the Middle East and Europe.
awb 5y ago
> you're just a meal Some animals attack out of defense as well, as in this case. > let's not idealize animals Acknowledging that most animals have consciousness, emotions, language, etc. isn't idealizing them, it's just an accurate observation. This is opposed to treating animals like trophies or non-sentient creatures. > where you among other things learn that dolphins and sea otters have rapists amongst their ranks As do humans. No one said animals are better or more virtuous than humans. OP's point is that it's not OK to go into nature and randomly shoot at animals for fun, entertainment, etc.
- ByteJockey 5y ago
  > most animals have consciousness, emotions, language, etc. Ok, so some I could see (elephants, dolphins, etc), but if it's most I'm gonna need a source on that.
  - awb 5y ago
    Well pretty much every animal is conscious (aware of it’s surroundings and interacting with it’s environment in a strategic way). Almost every animal needs to be able to communicate with their own species either through cooperation, competition or finding a mate. All mammals I know of (and I think by definition) nurse and care for their young. That means there’s some form of communication between the parents and the child. And for emotions, it’s easy to see in domesticated cats and dogs, as well as wild primates. Fear, jealousy, anger, affection, etc. But it’s also been documented in many other species as well. Here’s some more info: https://online.uwa.edu/news/empathy-in-animals/ https://online.uwa.edu/news/empathy-in-animals/ > We know that fish are conscious and sentient, rats, mice and chickens display empathy and feel not only their own pain but also that of other individuals https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/article/item/what_kind_of_emotions_do_animals_feel https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/article/item/what_kind_of_e... > Even rodents, once thought to be unaffected by emotions and devoid of facial expressions, have been found to “express anguish through narrowed eyes, flattened ears, and swollen cheeks.” They also have facial expressions for pleasure, and they recognize these states in other rats. As for horses, De Waal notes that their faces are “about as expressive as those of the primates.”
oh_sigh 5y ago
How does OP idealize animals? And why exactly does the leopard's capability for pity matter? I can have pity on a baby, or a tree, and help preserve it, even if it doesn't have the capability to pity or perform a similar task for me.
titzer 5y ago
> The sentient leopard wouldn't have such pity for you, you're just a meal. Sorry, but no. Leopards are not mindless eating machines that can be treated like evil robots with one intent. They have complex lives think about things, and feel pity, if limited. They are scrappy fighters getting pushed to the brink by human encroachment. They have shard minds and are shrewd when necessary. When they're gone, the world will have lost something seriously majestic--majestic in terms of millions of years of evolution and another branch of the tree of life sawed off. There will be only one reason that leopards go extinct, and that's us. They are consummate hunters, and they'll eat anything because they have to. > dispelled myths about animals (where you among other things learn that dolphins and sea otters have rapists amongst their ranks). If anything, the myth is that animals are simple, don't have issues, and don't live complex lives. Squirrel #57 is not the same as squirrel #43. That should make us want to stamp out their existence even less.
- Lordarminius 5y ago
  Leopards feel pity ? That is absolute nonsense.
  - dTal 5y ago
    It's not implausible. Domesticated cats are widely known to attempt to comfort their distressed humans.
    - jmnicolas 5y ago
      There's a few thousand years of domestication difference between the 2 species though.
      - dTal 5y ago
        In fact the most recent common ancestor of the domestic cat and the leopard lived on the order of 10 million years ago. But in any case, I was not endeavouring to prove that leopards feel pity, only to show that it was not so implausible as to merit such a dismissive response.
frereubu 5y ago
I'd recommend reading Are We Smart Enough to Know How Smart Animals Are? by the primatologist Frans de Waal. It's not just about apes and monkeys and it might change what feels like a rather jaded view of non-human animals.

Layke1123 5y ago

Careful, there could be an alien out there thinking the same about what you just wrote.

mauvehaus 5y ago

Sure, but as the species that claims greater intelligence, surely the onus is on the humans to not put themselves into a situation where they become a meal. Blindly shooting at an unknown target doesn't exactly suggest taking this responsibility seriously. I'd have been a-ok with the leopard making a meal of him for his foolishness. If we take it as a given that animals have no morality, or at least different morality than our own, surely it's incumbent upon us to act accordingly among them. Incidentally: while backpacking on Isle Royale, which has a robust wolf/moose ecosystem I asked a ranger why the wolves didn't just eat the plentiful, slow, weak humans instead of the moose. The ranger said humans aren't tasty to wolves.

jmnicolas 5y ago
I mostly agree with you, but don't forget that this story happened about a hundred years ago. People had different mentalities back then, less empathy. > The ranger said humans aren't tasty to wolves. I'm pretty sure it's BS. I'd bet more on wolves being afraid of humans (which is a good survival trait! Here in western Europe they have been hunted to extinction). I saw a YT video where a woman is recording a wolf that didn't see her. When it realize she's there, the wolf is startled and runs away.
- kayodelycaon 5y ago
  Having volunteered at a wolf sanctuary and interacted with a few of the human-friendly ones, they are as skittish as startled deer. Toss a deer leg in the pen and they run for the back fence. Not all though. Some of the “lower ranked” ones realized what was happening and took the opportunity to grab food they usually would have to wait for.
RcouF1uZ4gsC 5y ago
> Sure, but as the species that claims greater intelligence, surely the onus is on the humans to not put themselves into a situation where they become a meal. If you look at human history, they have mostly done that by eliminating predatory megafauna. There used to be lions in the Middle East and Europe.

awb 5y ago

> you're just a meal Some animals attack out of defense as well, as in this case. > let's not idealize animals Acknowledging that most animals have consciousness, emotions, language, etc. isn't idealizing them, it's just an accurate observation. This is opposed to treating animals like trophies or non-sentient creatures. > where you among other things learn that dolphins and sea otters have rapists amongst their ranks As do humans. No one said animals are better or more virtuous than humans. OP's point is that it's not OK to go into nature and randomly shoot at animals for fun, entertainment, etc.

ByteJockey 5y ago
> most animals have consciousness, emotions, language, etc. Ok, so some I could see (elephants, dolphins, etc), but if it's most I'm gonna need a source on that.
- awb 5y ago
  Well pretty much every animal is conscious (aware of it’s surroundings and interacting with it’s environment in a strategic way). Almost every animal needs to be able to communicate with their own species either through cooperation, competition or finding a mate. All mammals I know of (and I think by definition) nurse and care for their young. That means there’s some form of communication between the parents and the child. And for emotions, it’s easy to see in domesticated cats and dogs, as well as wild primates. Fear, jealousy, anger, affection, etc. But it’s also been documented in many other species as well. Here’s some more info: https://online.uwa.edu/news/empathy-in-animals/ https://online.uwa.edu/news/empathy-in-animals/ > We know that fish are conscious and sentient, rats, mice and chickens display empathy and feel not only their own pain but also that of other individuals https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/article/item/what_kind_of_emotions_do_animals_feel https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/article/item/what_kind_of_e... > Even rodents, once thought to be unaffected by emotions and devoid of facial expressions, have been found to “express anguish through narrowed eyes, flattened ears, and swollen cheeks.” They also have facial expressions for pleasure, and they recognize these states in other rats. As for horses, De Waal notes that their faces are “about as expressive as those of the primates.”

oh_sigh 5y ago

How does OP idealize animals? And why exactly does the leopard's capability for pity matter? I can have pity on a baby, or a tree, and help preserve it, even if it doesn't have the capability to pity or perform a similar task for me.

titzer 5y ago

> The sentient leopard wouldn't have such pity for you, you're just a meal. Sorry, but no. Leopards are not mindless eating machines that can be treated like evil robots with one intent. They have complex lives think about things, and feel pity, if limited. They are scrappy fighters getting pushed to the brink by human encroachment. They have shard minds and are shrewd when necessary. When they're gone, the world will have lost something seriously majestic--majestic in terms of millions of years of evolution and another branch of the tree of life sawed off. There will be only one reason that leopards go extinct, and that's us. They are consummate hunters, and they'll eat anything because they have to. > dispelled myths about animals (where you among other things learn that dolphins and sea otters have rapists amongst their ranks). If anything, the myth is that animals are simple, don't have issues, and don't live complex lives. Squirrel #57 is not the same as squirrel #43. That should make us want to stamp out their existence even less.

Lordarminius 5y ago
Leopards feel pity ? That is absolute nonsense.
- dTal 5y ago
  It's not implausible. Domesticated cats are widely known to attempt to comfort their distressed humans.
  - jmnicolas 5y ago
    There's a few thousand years of domestication difference between the 2 species though.
    - dTal 5y ago
      In fact the most recent common ancestor of the domestic cat and the leopard lived on the order of 10 million years ago. But in any case, I was not endeavouring to prove that leopards feel pity, only to show that it was not so implausible as to merit such a dismissive response.

frereubu 5y ago

I'd recommend reading Are We Smart Enough to Know How Smart Animals Are? by the primatologist Frans de Waal. It's not just about apes and monkeys and it might change what feels like a rather jaded view of non-human animals.