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Anonymous payments are critical to society. We’re already surveilled from every possible angle, total surveillance isn’t too far away. Many of these technologie

Anonymous payments are critical to society. We’re already surveilled from every possible angle, total surveillance isn’t too far away. Many of these technologies are not well understood by the general public and of course their proprietors will never admit to any wrongdoing. Our freedoms are eroding by the week. Many people here on HN right now probably don’t know what life was like prior to the Patriot Act. I just want to be left alone, to think and behave freely, including the ability to share my ideas without fear of reprisal.

Jensson 5y ago
I see no correlation between ability to track and oppressiveness of regimes. Scandinavian countries are great at tracking their people and very much not oppressive for example. > I just want to be left alone, to think and behave freely, including the ability to share my ideas without fear of reprisal. That requires the government to behave nicely, as long as the government would attack you if they knew about these things you would have to live in fear regardless if they tracked you or not. Freedom doesn't come from hiding things from the government, it comes from ensuring that your government isn't behaving like shit, as otherwise you will always dread the government finding out about your stuff. A person who has to hide what he does from the government isn't free, he is basically a refugee in his own country.
- dijonman2 5y ago
  I’m more afraid of my radical peers than the government. However, the government is made up of my peers. I come to terms with this by reminding myself how insignificant I am, and I’m not worth harassing. I’m not going to give an example but I hold a few unpopular beliefs. There are people who would like to see me die because of them. This is no way to live.
- pawelmurias 5y ago
  With enough tracking it's a lot easier to enforce rules making being oppressive a lot easier.
- bufferoverflow 5y ago
  > are great at tracking their people and very much not oppressive for example. But they will put you in a cage with criminals as soon as you make some transaction they don't approve of.
specialp 5y ago
The freedom to send absolutely anonymous payments comes with the cost of people using said freedom to extort people in an untraceable manner, and fund illicit activities that harm society such as terrorism. Every freedom comes with a cost, but usually the freedom to do such an act greatly outweighs the cost. I am interested in why we should live with the cost of this? What are the real benefits to society? Not just hypothetical ones, but what are real uses of paying someone completely anonymously that have the benefit of outweighing the real harms we have already seen?
- zaroth 5y ago
  The real benefits to society are absolutely tremendous. Extrapolate just a few more years of this trajectory and any protest or political candidate that isn’t endorsed by the ruling class will be impossible to fund or donate to. You can see it happening right before our eyes with the “Freedom Convoy” and the shutdown of donations and now freezing of bank accounts. When you can walk up to your political opponents and simply switch off their campaign financing you no longer have a functional democracy. I guess if you don’t like democracy then you could be totally fine with this trade-off?
  - soco 5y ago
    But when you drive up to innocent citizens and switch off their city, do you have a functional democracy? Or is this the new way the US understands exporting democracy?

Jensson 5y ago

I see no correlation between ability to track and oppressiveness of regimes. Scandinavian countries are great at tracking their people and very much not oppressive for example. > I just want to be left alone, to think and behave freely, including the ability to share my ideas without fear of reprisal. That requires the government to behave nicely, as long as the government would attack you if they knew about these things you would have to live in fear regardless if they tracked you or not. Freedom doesn't come from hiding things from the government, it comes from ensuring that your government isn't behaving like shit, as otherwise you will always dread the government finding out about your stuff. A person who has to hide what he does from the government isn't free, he is basically a refugee in his own country.

dijonman2 5y ago
I’m more afraid of my radical peers than the government. However, the government is made up of my peers. I come to terms with this by reminding myself how insignificant I am, and I’m not worth harassing. I’m not going to give an example but I hold a few unpopular beliefs. There are people who would like to see me die because of them. This is no way to live.
pawelmurias 5y ago
With enough tracking it's a lot easier to enforce rules making being oppressive a lot easier.
bufferoverflow 5y ago
> are great at tracking their people and very much not oppressive for example. But they will put you in a cage with criminals as soon as you make some transaction they don't approve of.

specialp 5y ago

The freedom to send absolutely anonymous payments comes with the cost of people using said freedom to extort people in an untraceable manner, and fund illicit activities that harm society such as terrorism. Every freedom comes with a cost, but usually the freedom to do such an act greatly outweighs the cost. I am interested in why we should live with the cost of this? What are the real benefits to society? Not just hypothetical ones, but what are real uses of paying someone completely anonymously that have the benefit of outweighing the real harms we have already seen?

zaroth 5y ago
The real benefits to society are absolutely tremendous. Extrapolate just a few more years of this trajectory and any protest or political candidate that isn’t endorsed by the ruling class will be impossible to fund or donate to. You can see it happening right before our eyes with the “Freedom Convoy” and the shutdown of donations and now freezing of bank accounts. When you can walk up to your political opponents and simply switch off their campaign financing you no longer have a functional democracy. I guess if you don’t like democracy then you could be totally fine with this trade-off?
- soco 5y ago
  But when you drive up to innocent citizens and switch off their city, do you have a functional democracy? Or is this the new way the US understands exporting democracy?