5 ms·

Desktop linux is as much of an incoherent, barely working mess as it has always been.

by grishka 5y ago

larrik 5y ago
I strongly disagree.
- grishka 5y ago
  https://itvision.altervista.org/why.linux.is.not.ready.for.the.desktop.current.html https://itvision.altervista.org/why.linux.is.not.ready.for.t...
  - Underphil 5y ago
    Posting someone else's single opinion to back up your own is no less anecdotal than your original post. Whilst I'm not accusing you of this specifically, I have noticed a trend toward folks being so ingrained in the 'Windows way' that anything else is broken if it doesn't act the same. I was the same way for a long time. Started using Windows in 1994 and when I found Linux for myself, I just got angry that it wasn't working the same way Windows did. Took 10 years or more to realise that is a good thing. Either way, I don't need to read that article. It works well for me and countless others, better than Windows ever did. Can it improve? Of course it can, drastically. But so can Windows, MacOS, BSD and everything else.
    - itvision 5y ago
      So far "Linux works well for you and countless others" but almost all these people fall under the category of IT specialists or people with a high IQ. There are many anecdotal stories how Windows doesn't work but considering a majority of organizations run Windows (and we are talking about literally hundreds of millions of users) just fine with little to no maintenance while Linux is nowhere to be seen, speaks volumes about the validity and the breadth of your statement. BTW, what's the decent alternatives for AD, GPO, CIFS and something as simple as MSTSC/RDP in Linux/GNU? Pretty much none? Just don't talk about LDAP, SSH, NFS and VNC. There are nowhere near in terms of features and simplicity. 99.9% of people on Earth won't be able to configure them let along install them. I could continue for hours about the things Linux distros are lacking. When talking about tech and IT it is pertinent to look beyond one's nose. Linux works for me as well. How much time have I spent fixing its bugs and quirks? A hundred times more than reinstalling Windows. How many issues have you helped solve in the Linux kernel? Zero? I'm over a dozen now. Some of them took literally tens of hours of painful debugging. There's just one OS where Linux indeed works: Android. Only Android doesn't use the vanilla Linux kernel. Only Android runs on very specific devices. And the Android userspace has/uses zero GNU components. "Linux works". LMAO.
      - Underphil 5y ago
        How does any of this relate to the accusation that 'desktop Linux is a mess'?
      - larrik 5y ago
        Meanwhile, I got sick of fixing my brother's laptop and threw Ubuntu on it quite a few years back. I didn't hear from him again about it until the screen physically broke. Ubuntu "just worked" for him in ways that Windows didn't, and he's not in IT at all (he's a mechanic), and isn't very patient either. I showed him how to install software on it through the Synaptic store or whatever it was at the time, and he just ran with it.
      - michaelmrose 5y ago
        Why would I want to choose software based on how well it worked for unintelligent people? Lets take installing software on Ubuntu. If you are used to downloading exes and msis a software store is an additional detail worse it doesn't have absolutely everything you could ever want right off the bat so you now need to learn about software sources. On net I think the benefit of both is massive over simply downloading exes and msis but for some degree of user you have already crossed the threshhold of complexity they will sit down for. Isn't it ultimately OK to have different software for Grandma to watch netflix on and for techies to have on their desktop?
fortyseven 5y ago
You couldn't be more wrong. I made the leap to Ubuntu 20.04 late last year and haven't regretted it. This after a quarter decade of being a Windows guy. There's a couple rough edges, but overall? I'm home.
- grishka 5y ago
  I've been using macOS for 10 years. Can't fathom going to anything else at this point. Especially anything that requires as much maintenance and DIY as desktop Linux does. I'm fine with running Linux on my servers though — it's robust, simple and reliable for this purpose. Besides, I simply don't like the approach Linux takes to desktop. The desktop should be part of the system, not a bunch of loose add-on components that you can mix and match and pray they work together.
  - Underphil 5y ago
    I can appreciate your POV, but your experience is not the same as mine. DIY and maintenance is a thing of the past. At least the kind that I think you're referring to. If you buy hardware that's well supported and proven, that isn't a thing anymore. You already have to do that with MacOS, so why should Linux be any different?
  - GeoAtreides 5y ago
    >maintenance and DIY as desktop Linux does That's what I like about my (l)ubuntu, I literally don't have to do any kind of maintenance or DIY. It just works. And it keeps working even when I don't restart my PC for months.
  - larrik 5y ago
    So far, I find macOS to be more maintenance and trouble than Linux. Plus if there's something I want to change in Linux, it's usually a configuration somewhere, while on macOS I need to buy an app, which is pretty frustrating.
- causi 5y ago
  A quarter decade? So you were a Windows guy for a couple of years?
Underphil 5y ago
Absolutely false. It may not be for you, but it is not remotely a mess. I do everything from DevOps work, to gaming, to audio production in desktop Linux. It absolutely is a viable alternative for millions of people. But I concede, not for everyone. But your hyperbole is plainly false and likely to deter folks who would otherwise thrive in Linux.
- brimble 5y ago
  Heavy Linux user since about 2000, was my main desktop (and laptop!) operating system from about 2002-2011. Mainly Mandrake (mostly early on), Ubuntu, Gentoo (on the laptop, and elsewhere—probably my most-used personal distro), and Debian. I most recently gave it a serious go about a year ago (Fedora and Ubuntu, plus some Void [Void was pretty nice!]) Can confirm it's a mess and there was no hyperbole in the original description. The only reason I didn't realize it back in the 00s was because I was only comparing it to Windows and pre-X macOS (well, and BeOS, but I was under no illusions that was a viable alternative). And, spyware and adware aside (not to dismiss those, they're why I still consider it unsuited for serious work) Windows got a lot better over that span. In hindsight I can tell that I'd become blind to all the time I was losing to it. I'd lose 30 minutes or a whole day fucking with dumb shit that I never should have had to, and a week later I'd have told you "no, Linux isn't that hard to keep up!" I'd trained myself to avoid doing a bunch of stuff with my computers because it would rarely work and often trigger glitches or crashes (like drag-n-drop operations). Now, when I periodically go back to it, that stuff slaps me in the face so hard it's impossible for me to miss, now that I'm not used to being slapped in the face daily. Missing functionality and software doesn't help either.
  - Underphil 5y ago
    It's difficult to 'confirm' something that's just your experience. I, conversely, can confirm it's not a mess in that case. I will admit there are times when I have dig into the system a little to resolve a niggling issue but I consider that the price I pay for avoiding telemetry, vendor lock-in and a mostly proprietary ecosystem. I have not experienced 'drag and drop operations crashing'. '30 minutes' or a 'whole day fucking with dumb shit' hasn't been my experience for many years. I maintain it is not a mess. It is not ideal, but a 'mess' IS hyperbole.
selfhoster11 5y ago
Software is something that you have to fight constantly, but Windows 10 and later are unique in that they fight you back. Linux doesn't do that. Once you hammer it into obedience, it largely stays that way until you upgrade to the new LTS releases.
allisdust 5y ago
Not sure when or what you have tried. Linux on desktop is rock solid often not even needing to install anything to support latest hardware. Unless you want to there is no reason to even open terminal. For those wanting to try Linux coming from Windows, I recommend latest fedora with kde. You will get good support for latest hardware and kde is close to Windows and just works.
- larrik 5y ago
  Fedora is great, but lots of software assumes you are on Ubuntu, so that feels like a safer push.

Desktop linux is as much of an incoherent, barely working mess as it has always been.

larrik 5y ago

I strongly disagree.

grishka 5y ago
https://itvision.altervista.org/why.linux.is.not.ready.for.the.desktop.current.html https://itvision.altervista.org/why.linux.is.not.ready.for.t...
- Underphil 5y ago
  Posting someone else's single opinion to back up your own is no less anecdotal than your original post. Whilst I'm not accusing you of this specifically, I have noticed a trend toward folks being so ingrained in the 'Windows way' that anything else is broken if it doesn't act the same. I was the same way for a long time. Started using Windows in 1994 and when I found Linux for myself, I just got angry that it wasn't working the same way Windows did. Took 10 years or more to realise that is a good thing. Either way, I don't need to read that article. It works well for me and countless others, better than Windows ever did. Can it improve? Of course it can, drastically. But so can Windows, MacOS, BSD and everything else.
  - itvision 5y ago
    So far "Linux works well for you and countless others" but almost all these people fall under the category of IT specialists or people with a high IQ. There are many anecdotal stories how Windows doesn't work but considering a majority of organizations run Windows (and we are talking about literally hundreds of millions of users) just fine with little to no maintenance while Linux is nowhere to be seen, speaks volumes about the validity and the breadth of your statement. BTW, what's the decent alternatives for AD, GPO, CIFS and something as simple as MSTSC/RDP in Linux/GNU? Pretty much none? Just don't talk about LDAP, SSH, NFS and VNC. There are nowhere near in terms of features and simplicity. 99.9% of people on Earth won't be able to configure them let along install them. I could continue for hours about the things Linux distros are lacking. When talking about tech and IT it is pertinent to look beyond one's nose. Linux works for me as well. How much time have I spent fixing its bugs and quirks? A hundred times more than reinstalling Windows. How many issues have you helped solve in the Linux kernel? Zero? I'm over a dozen now. Some of them took literally tens of hours of painful debugging. There's just one OS where Linux indeed works: Android. Only Android doesn't use the vanilla Linux kernel. Only Android runs on very specific devices. And the Android userspace has/uses zero GNU components. "Linux works". LMAO.
    - Underphil 5y ago
      How does any of this relate to the accusation that 'desktop Linux is a mess'?
    - larrik 5y ago
      Meanwhile, I got sick of fixing my brother's laptop and threw Ubuntu on it quite a few years back. I didn't hear from him again about it until the screen physically broke. Ubuntu "just worked" for him in ways that Windows didn't, and he's not in IT at all (he's a mechanic), and isn't very patient either. I showed him how to install software on it through the Synaptic store or whatever it was at the time, and he just ran with it.
    - michaelmrose 5y ago
      Why would I want to choose software based on how well it worked for unintelligent people? Lets take installing software on Ubuntu. If you are used to downloading exes and msis a software store is an additional detail worse it doesn't have absolutely everything you could ever want right off the bat so you now need to learn about software sources. On net I think the benefit of both is massive over simply downloading exes and msis but for some degree of user you have already crossed the threshhold of complexity they will sit down for. Isn't it ultimately OK to have different software for Grandma to watch netflix on and for techies to have on their desktop?

fortyseven 5y ago

You couldn't be more wrong. I made the leap to Ubuntu 20.04 late last year and haven't regretted it. This after a quarter decade of being a Windows guy. There's a couple rough edges, but overall? I'm home.

grishka 5y ago
I've been using macOS for 10 years. Can't fathom going to anything else at this point. Especially anything that requires as much maintenance and DIY as desktop Linux does. I'm fine with running Linux on my servers though — it's robust, simple and reliable for this purpose. Besides, I simply don't like the approach Linux takes to desktop. The desktop should be part of the system, not a bunch of loose add-on components that you can mix and match and pray they work together.
- Underphil 5y ago
  I can appreciate your POV, but your experience is not the same as mine. DIY and maintenance is a thing of the past. At least the kind that I think you're referring to. If you buy hardware that's well supported and proven, that isn't a thing anymore. You already have to do that with MacOS, so why should Linux be any different?
- GeoAtreides 5y ago
  >maintenance and DIY as desktop Linux does That's what I like about my (l)ubuntu, I literally don't have to do any kind of maintenance or DIY. It just works. And it keeps working even when I don't restart my PC for months.
- larrik 5y ago
  So far, I find macOS to be more maintenance and trouble than Linux. Plus if there's something I want to change in Linux, it's usually a configuration somewhere, while on macOS I need to buy an app, which is pretty frustrating.
causi 5y ago
A quarter decade? So you were a Windows guy for a couple of years?

Underphil 5y ago

Absolutely false. It may not be for you, but it is not remotely a mess. I do everything from DevOps work, to gaming, to audio production in desktop Linux. It absolutely is a viable alternative for millions of people. But I concede, not for everyone. But your hyperbole is plainly false and likely to deter folks who would otherwise thrive in Linux.

brimble 5y ago
Heavy Linux user since about 2000, was my main desktop (and laptop!) operating system from about 2002-2011. Mainly Mandrake (mostly early on), Ubuntu, Gentoo (on the laptop, and elsewhere—probably my most-used personal distro), and Debian. I most recently gave it a serious go about a year ago (Fedora and Ubuntu, plus some Void [Void was pretty nice!]) Can confirm it's a mess and there was no hyperbole in the original description. The only reason I didn't realize it back in the 00s was because I was only comparing it to Windows and pre-X macOS (well, and BeOS, but I was under no illusions that was a viable alternative). And, spyware and adware aside (not to dismiss those, they're why I still consider it unsuited for serious work) Windows got a lot better over that span. In hindsight I can tell that I'd become blind to all the time I was losing to it. I'd lose 30 minutes or a whole day fucking with dumb shit that I never should have had to, and a week later I'd have told you "no, Linux isn't that hard to keep up!" I'd trained myself to avoid doing a bunch of stuff with my computers because it would rarely work and often trigger glitches or crashes (like drag-n-drop operations). Now, when I periodically go back to it, that stuff slaps me in the face so hard it's impossible for me to miss, now that I'm not used to being slapped in the face daily. Missing functionality and software doesn't help either.
- Underphil 5y ago
  It's difficult to 'confirm' something that's just your experience. I, conversely, can confirm it's not a mess in that case. I will admit there are times when I have dig into the system a little to resolve a niggling issue but I consider that the price I pay for avoiding telemetry, vendor lock-in and a mostly proprietary ecosystem. I have not experienced 'drag and drop operations crashing'. '30 minutes' or a 'whole day fucking with dumb shit' hasn't been my experience for many years. I maintain it is not a mess. It is not ideal, but a 'mess' IS hyperbole.

selfhoster11 5y ago

Software is something that you have to fight constantly, but Windows 10 and later are unique in that they fight you back. Linux doesn't do that. Once you hammer it into obedience, it largely stays that way until you upgrade to the new LTS releases.

allisdust 5y ago

Not sure when or what you have tried. Linux on desktop is rock solid often not even needing to install anything to support latest hardware. Unless you want to there is no reason to even open terminal. For those wanting to try Linux coming from Windows, I recommend latest fedora with kde. You will get good support for latest hardware and kde is close to Windows and just works.

larrik 5y ago
Fedora is great, but lots of software assumes you are on Ubuntu, so that feels like a safer push.