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anyone have more info on the group that makes these videos ? seems like they make decoy accounts and pretend to be underage targets but would like to learn more

anyone have more info on the group that makes these videos ? seems like they make decoy accounts and pretend to be underage targets but would like to learn more about their process: are they legit or would it be equivalent to police entrapment ?

giraffe_lady 5y ago
What do you mean legit? Usable in court? Nothing else is really equivalent to "police entrapment" though. What makes that bad is that it's the police doing it, otherwise it's just asking a favor. If you can lie your way to getting someone to confess to a crime that's pretty much fine in the legal system, I think. Police do it all the time anyway and not even as some shady thing they have to hide it's just part of the work.
- jeffbee 5y ago
  In American jurisprudence, the police can be as deceptive as they want to be in interrogations. They can say that a confederate confessed, that they have evidence, that the victim died or identified the suspect, regardless of the truth of those statements. See the recent Nightingale case, which is hilarious because criminals are idiots. """Ferland and Keegan suggested to Nightingale that they potentially had satellite photography of his car at the Millers’ home; had DNA test results showing that Nightingale’s DNA was on a doorknob and a locking mechanism at the Millers’ home, which was significant because it appeared that the last person out had locked the door; had found flakes of Nightingale’s skin on the Millers’ bodies; and had recovered fingerprint or DNA evidence on money that the detectives told Nightingale they had seized from his father. These were “realistic bluffs” and untrue."""
  - lupire 5y ago
    Related: There is always at least one person lying during a polygraph examination.
- denlekke 5y ago
  great question ! i guess i was just wondering how the investigators make sure they aren't creating a situation that wouldn't exist otherwise. i couldn't find much info on the process. is the victim a real underage person ? was the victim already being contacted in a sexual way by this guy before the investigators got involved ? having seen internet investigators get things wrong before and having an incentive to create the most sensational content possible, i just want to evaluate for myself how careful they are about what they're doing
KennyBlanken 5y ago
Fun fact: 99% of the people who think something is entrapment have no idea what "entrapment" means. If the cops leave a car running with the keys in it, and you steal it, that's not entrapment. If someone says in a forum "hey I'm 13 and I like dinosaurs" and you start messaging them about touching peepees and such: not entrapment. The cases involving entrapment and terrorism charges, for example, have been largely bullshit. They'll find someone not-all-there mentally, source a "weapon" for them, groom and coach them, egg them on, hand them plans, etc....that's entrapment.
- denlekke 5y ago
  for sure, thanks for the reply. i meant something like "is the group doing anything to initiate or solicit contact, or a relationship, or do they only create an account and wait?" in your example there seems to be a line between initiating contact and an initiating an illegal act, and i'm curious which side of that line the investigators are on in this case
- steve_adams_86 5y ago
  Here is a good example of legitimate entrapment from my province in Canada, matching your description very closely: https://www.bccourts.ca/jdb-txt/sc/16/14/2016bcsc1404.htm#BookMark717 https://www.bccourts.ca/jdb-txt/sc/16/14/2016bcsc1404.htm#Bo...
- datavirtue 5y ago
  FBI specialty. Illegally survail criminals and then tempt them with a big deal. The entire deal is an orchestrated play by the FBI, the perp did not approach them, the FBI initiates everything from zero to 100% and eggs them on: entrapment. The entrapment aspect is always left out of the shows/documentaries/news. The media reports only about what the perp did...showing zero FBI context. Despite them doing this to criminals, I find it disgusting. Rarely mentioned are the innocent lives they trash in the process.
mdoms 5y ago
This group is called Predator Catchers Indianapolis. Here's their Facebook page - they seem like an incredibly unprofessional outfit. https://www.facebook.com/PredatorCatchersIndianapolis/ https://www.facebook.com/PredatorCatchersIndianapolis/ It sounds like they pose as minors and look for sketchy men to try to set up meets with them. Here's a news article with this quote from a female predator catcher, > “Basically, I brought you out here ‘cause we know who you are, I’m definitely not 14, you’ve definitely been talking to a decoy,” the woman said while walking with Boyer into the nearby parking lot. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2021/02/25/indianapolis-predator-catchers-hunt-offenders-experts-urge-caution/4549340001/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2021/02/25/indian... More on their process (and even more detail in the article): > Here's how it works: Members of these groups create fake, "decoy" dating or social media profiles and, once connected with someone, share their decoy age. The conversation either ends or continues and eventually becomes sexual, Spain and Schmutte said, at which point they'll agree to meet, only to reveal their true identities and confront the person while streaming on Facebook Live. > Austin Spain looks at his Facebook Messenger inbox on his phone Wednesday, Feb. 10, 2021. He has two decoy pages that he uses in his search for sexual predators online. > For Spain, it's as easy as creating decoy Facebook pages using photos of adult female friends who he said have given him permission to use their images. One decoy page reviewed by IndyStar shows a young woman who says she's a student at a Bedford high school who likes reading. There's nothing outwardly provocative about the page. > Spain doesn't send friend requests, he said, nor does he initiate conversations. He lets the requests come to him. When he spoke to IndyStar on Jan. 22, Spain said one of his decoy pages had around 900 pending friend requests. Typically, he sorts through requests and messages, deleting those that are obviously fake or out-of-state. Then, it's just a matter of responding to that first message. ---- To me the people running these groups seem very narcissistic. I have no doubt they think they're doing a good thing, but I am never in favour of vigilante justice.
- version_five 5y ago
  I think maybe they would be more effective by revealing themselves earlier on and hopefully scaring the offender out of doing what they are doing (I dont really know the psychology of this, I picture there are pathological cases that need real help and won't be deterred anyway and some borderline creeps who just need to be shocked into realizing what they are doing is not cool.) For the latter group, scaring the shit out of them may better serve the actual purpose of deterring crimes against children, vs going all the way to some kind of final sting operation that is only going to marginalize people further and maybe even push them to doing more of this. Unfortunately I think the vigilantes are more about getting a sensational result than actually trying to solve a problem

giraffe_lady 5y ago

What do you mean legit? Usable in court? Nothing else is really equivalent to "police entrapment" though. What makes that bad is that it's the police doing it, otherwise it's just asking a favor. If you can lie your way to getting someone to confess to a crime that's pretty much fine in the legal system, I think. Police do it all the time anyway and not even as some shady thing they have to hide it's just part of the work.

jeffbee 5y ago
In American jurisprudence, the police can be as deceptive as they want to be in interrogations. They can say that a confederate confessed, that they have evidence, that the victim died or identified the suspect, regardless of the truth of those statements. See the recent Nightingale case, which is hilarious because criminals are idiots. """Ferland and Keegan suggested to Nightingale that they potentially had satellite photography of his car at the Millers’ home; had DNA test results showing that Nightingale’s DNA was on a doorknob and a locking mechanism at the Millers’ home, which was significant because it appeared that the last person out had locked the door; had found flakes of Nightingale’s skin on the Millers’ bodies; and had recovered fingerprint or DNA evidence on money that the detectives told Nightingale they had seized from his father. These were “realistic bluffs” and untrue."""
- lupire 5y ago
  Related: There is always at least one person lying during a polygraph examination.
denlekke 5y ago
great question ! i guess i was just wondering how the investigators make sure they aren't creating a situation that wouldn't exist otherwise. i couldn't find much info on the process. is the victim a real underage person ? was the victim already being contacted in a sexual way by this guy before the investigators got involved ? having seen internet investigators get things wrong before and having an incentive to create the most sensational content possible, i just want to evaluate for myself how careful they are about what they're doing

KennyBlanken 5y ago

Fun fact: 99% of the people who think something is entrapment have no idea what "entrapment" means. If the cops leave a car running with the keys in it, and you steal it, that's not entrapment. If someone says in a forum "hey I'm 13 and I like dinosaurs" and you start messaging them about touching peepees and such: not entrapment. The cases involving entrapment and terrorism charges, for example, have been largely bullshit. They'll find someone not-all-there mentally, source a "weapon" for them, groom and coach them, egg them on, hand them plans, etc....that's entrapment.

denlekke 5y ago
for sure, thanks for the reply. i meant something like "is the group doing anything to initiate or solicit contact, or a relationship, or do they only create an account and wait?" in your example there seems to be a line between initiating contact and an initiating an illegal act, and i'm curious which side of that line the investigators are on in this case
steve_adams_86 5y ago
Here is a good example of legitimate entrapment from my province in Canada, matching your description very closely: https://www.bccourts.ca/jdb-txt/sc/16/14/2016bcsc1404.htm#BookMark717 https://www.bccourts.ca/jdb-txt/sc/16/14/2016bcsc1404.htm#Bo...
datavirtue 5y ago
FBI specialty. Illegally survail criminals and then tempt them with a big deal. The entire deal is an orchestrated play by the FBI, the perp did not approach them, the FBI initiates everything from zero to 100% and eggs them on: entrapment. The entrapment aspect is always left out of the shows/documentaries/news. The media reports only about what the perp did...showing zero FBI context. Despite them doing this to criminals, I find it disgusting. Rarely mentioned are the innocent lives they trash in the process.

mdoms 5y ago

This group is called Predator Catchers Indianapolis. Here's their Facebook page - they seem like an incredibly unprofessional outfit. https://www.facebook.com/PredatorCatchersIndianapolis/ https://www.facebook.com/PredatorCatchersIndianapolis/ It sounds like they pose as minors and look for sketchy men to try to set up meets with them. Here's a news article with this quote from a female predator catcher, > “Basically, I brought you out here ‘cause we know who you are, I’m definitely not 14, you’ve definitely been talking to a decoy,” the woman said while walking with Boyer into the nearby parking lot. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2021/02/25/indianapolis-predator-catchers-hunt-offenders-experts-urge-caution/4549340001/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2021/02/25/indian... More on their process (and even more detail in the article): > Here's how it works: Members of these groups create fake, "decoy" dating or social media profiles and, once connected with someone, share their decoy age. The conversation either ends or continues and eventually becomes sexual, Spain and Schmutte said, at which point they'll agree to meet, only to reveal their true identities and confront the person while streaming on Facebook Live. > Austin Spain looks at his Facebook Messenger inbox on his phone Wednesday, Feb. 10, 2021. He has two decoy pages that he uses in his search for sexual predators online. > For Spain, it's as easy as creating decoy Facebook pages using photos of adult female friends who he said have given him permission to use their images. One decoy page reviewed by IndyStar shows a young woman who says she's a student at a Bedford high school who likes reading. There's nothing outwardly provocative about the page. > Spain doesn't send friend requests, he said, nor does he initiate conversations. He lets the requests come to him. When he spoke to IndyStar on Jan. 22, Spain said one of his decoy pages had around 900 pending friend requests. Typically, he sorts through requests and messages, deleting those that are obviously fake or out-of-state. Then, it's just a matter of responding to that first message. ---- To me the people running these groups seem very narcissistic. I have no doubt they think they're doing a good thing, but I am never in favour of vigilante justice.

version_five 5y ago
I think maybe they would be more effective by revealing themselves earlier on and hopefully scaring the offender out of doing what they are doing (I dont really know the psychology of this, I picture there are pathological cases that need real help and won't be deterred anyway and some borderline creeps who just need to be shocked into realizing what they are doing is not cool.) For the latter group, scaring the shit out of them may better serve the actual purpose of deterring crimes against children, vs going all the way to some kind of final sting operation that is only going to marginalize people further and maybe even push them to doing more of this. Unfortunately I think the vigilantes are more about getting a sensational result than actually trying to solve a problem