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People are cheering at Canada forfeiting bank accounts. When such policies are normalized we can expect much more of this. This needs to be stopped, both here a

People are cheering at Canada forfeiting bank accounts. When such policies are normalized we can expect much more of this. This needs to be stopped, both here and in Canada for everyone’s sake.

ttul 5y ago
I'm cool with it, so long as there are horrible penalties for abuse and solid checks and balances in the courts, reasonable time limits, etc. The US civil forfeiture system seems rife with abuse. It's not nearly as bad in Canada.
sudosysgen 5y ago
No bank accounts are being forfeited in Canada. They are being frozen, which is still bad, but it's not anywhere near as bad as forfeiting.
- cjbgkagh 5y ago
  It denies the ability to afford a defense against anything else you may be accused of. These people got their money back yet were left immensely damaged by the process.
  - sudosysgen 5y ago
    We can agree it's still damaging, but it's nowhere even near as bad as seizure. Frozen funds never go away no matter what.
    - cjbgkagh 5y ago
      I was saying in the best case it’s damaging. After failing to defend I assume the next step is forfeiture.
      - sudosysgen 5y ago
        No, it's not. Frozen funds aren't forfeited. Normally they are automatically unfrozen once the investigation is over.
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
        cjbgkagh 5y ago
        The funds are frozen for a reason, upon failing to defend then the the freezing rolls over into forfeiture.
fundad 5y ago
It's already normalized to the tune of billions to people without startups.
_jal 5y ago
Whatever else you may think about the relative merits of forfeiture[1], white-collar crime or disruptive occupations, it is not difficult to distinguish a disruptive occupation from white-collar crime. Also, my understanding is the Canadians are freezing funds, not confiscating. [1] For the record, I very against
klyrs 5y ago
The only "cheering" I've seen about that is a sense of just desserts. Authoritarians in the US and Canada have been banging the "law and order" drum for decades. Those authoritarians largely call themselves, or at least primarily vote, Conservative or Republican. That the same legislative weapons are being turned against the very people who have asked for them gives me hope that we're going to see some bipartisan action against these blatant human rights violations.
- theossuary 5y ago
  And it's a bit hollow. Watching Canadian police break up protests and then start hugging protestors [1] afterwards shows how they use kid gloves in this situation. A far cry from how they've treated pipeline protestors and the like. They're purposefully failing to manage this protest, and simultaneously using it as an excuse to demand more power. I think it's pretty obvious the next left-wing protest in Canada is going to be much worse. I haven't seen any left leaning groups cheering this on; but there's too much irony to ignore. Akin to watching Capital rioters worry about getting prosecuted under the rules Trump and the DOJ put in place to harshly prosecute BLM protestors. Here's a podcast covering the actual common sentiment of the left [3]. [1]: https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/police-hug-protesters-as-they-roll-out-from-coutts-alberta-border-crossing https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/police-hug-protesters-a... [2]: https://apnews.com/article/state-courts-violent-crime-arson-violence-crime-cbca8672a70f9f170a086a7a252a751e https://apnews.com/article/state-courts-violent-crime-arson-... [3]: https://www.iheart.com/podcast/1119-it-could-happen-here-30717896/episode/canadian-freedom-convoy-part-1-origins-92922668/ https://www.iheart.com/podcast/1119-it-could-happen-here-307...
  - klyrs 5y ago
    Indeed; any other blockade of the nation's capitol would have been violently broken up 3 weeks ago. That the federal government needed to declare this a national emergency to prompt the police to act is, itself, quite telling. The indigenous activists I've heard speak of this express hope that future protests will be treated with such honor, grace and respect.
Permit 5y ago
> People are cheering at Canada forfeiting bank accounts. When such policies are normalized we can expect much more of this. Completely untrue. Civil forfeiture is a uniquely American experience. The Emergencies Act will not lead to broad civil forfeiture in Canada. That is, the Prime Minister of Canada freezing bank accounts will not grant Canadian police officers the ability to seize your assets indefinitely without trial. It is rhetorically convenient to try to link freezing a bank account to civil forfeiture, but they are not the same thing.
- kodah 5y ago
  Civil Forfeiture money can be returned. It usually goes into some kind of escrow system. It is very much like freezing a bank account in outcome because it denies the accused the financial ability to defend themselves or to defend themselves at their own detriment. Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_forfeiture_in_the_United_States https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_forfeiture_in_the_Unit... While I focused on the outcome above, I think both violate the "presumption of innocence" attitude that our legal system is supposed to be built around. Edit I don't watch the news, so I didn't know what's happening in Canada. Here's some links: https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/ottawa-protests-frozen-bank-accounts-1.6355396 https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/ottawa-protests-frozen-bank... https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-60383385 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-60383385 This is fairly wild on every level.
  - klyrs 5y ago
    In the article, the victims were forced to sell assets, including a house, almost certainly at a loss, to satisfy the FBI's demands. Two years later, the money is returned. Do they get interest on that money? Did the money appreciate as quickly as the house would in Seattle's housing bubble? As far as I can tell, frozen bank accounts continue to accrue interest at their normal rate. The relative impacts are very different.
    - kodah 5y ago
      Civil Forfeiture can cover anything including a house. That's one of the very legitimate criticisms of it. In this story, money was taken and they had to sell their house to cover legal and living expenses. If you freeze assets the same thing can, and commonly does, happen. Civil Forfeiture is definitely awful, but so is freezing someones assets is my point.
A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago
It is not forfeiture. It is actually worse. It is using the system in ways that AML/BSA people in US warned the Patriot Act would inevitably evolve into. The only surprise is it happened in Canada first. The system is in place to muzzle anyone and everyone that would dream of thinking of getting out of line.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

People are cheering at Canada forfeiting bank accounts. When such policies are normalized we can expect much more of this. This needs to be stopped, both here and in Canada for everyone’s sake.

ttul 5y ago

I'm cool with it, so long as there are horrible penalties for abuse and solid checks and balances in the courts, reasonable time limits, etc. The US civil forfeiture system seems rife with abuse. It's not nearly as bad in Canada.

sudosysgen 5y ago

No bank accounts are being forfeited in Canada. They are being frozen, which is still bad, but it's not anywhere near as bad as forfeiting.

cjbgkagh 5y ago
It denies the ability to afford a defense against anything else you may be accused of. These people got their money back yet were left immensely damaged by the process.
- sudosysgen 5y ago
  We can agree it's still damaging, but it's nowhere even near as bad as seizure. Frozen funds never go away no matter what.
  - cjbgkagh 5y ago
    I was saying in the best case it’s damaging. After failing to defend I assume the next step is forfeiture.
    - sudosysgen 5y ago
      No, it's not. Frozen funds aren't forfeited. Normally they are automatically unfrozen once the investigation is over.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - cjbgkagh 5y ago
        The funds are frozen for a reason, upon failing to defend then the the freezing rolls over into forfeiture.

fundad 5y ago

It's already normalized to the tune of billions to people without startups.

_jal 5y ago

Whatever else you may think about the relative merits of forfeiture[1], white-collar crime or disruptive occupations, it is not difficult to distinguish a disruptive occupation from white-collar crime. Also, my understanding is the Canadians are freezing funds, not confiscating. [1] For the record, I very against

klyrs 5y ago

The only "cheering" I've seen about that is a sense of just desserts. Authoritarians in the US and Canada have been banging the "law and order" drum for decades. Those authoritarians largely call themselves, or at least primarily vote, Conservative or Republican. That the same legislative weapons are being turned against the very people who have asked for them gives me hope that we're going to see some bipartisan action against these blatant human rights violations.

theossuary 5y ago
And it's a bit hollow. Watching Canadian police break up protests and then start hugging protestors [1] afterwards shows how they use kid gloves in this situation. A far cry from how they've treated pipeline protestors and the like. They're purposefully failing to manage this protest, and simultaneously using it as an excuse to demand more power. I think it's pretty obvious the next left-wing protest in Canada is going to be much worse. I haven't seen any left leaning groups cheering this on; but there's too much irony to ignore. Akin to watching Capital rioters worry about getting prosecuted under the rules Trump and the DOJ put in place to harshly prosecute BLM protestors. Here's a podcast covering the actual common sentiment of the left [3]. [1]: https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/police-hug-protesters-as-they-roll-out-from-coutts-alberta-border-crossing https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/police-hug-protesters-a... [2]: https://apnews.com/article/state-courts-violent-crime-arson-violence-crime-cbca8672a70f9f170a086a7a252a751e https://apnews.com/article/state-courts-violent-crime-arson-... [3]: https://www.iheart.com/podcast/1119-it-could-happen-here-30717896/episode/canadian-freedom-convoy-part-1-origins-92922668/ https://www.iheart.com/podcast/1119-it-could-happen-here-307...
- klyrs 5y ago
  Indeed; any other blockade of the nation's capitol would have been violently broken up 3 weeks ago. That the federal government needed to declare this a national emergency to prompt the police to act is, itself, quite telling. The indigenous activists I've heard speak of this express hope that future protests will be treated with such honor, grace and respect.

Permit 5y ago

> People are cheering at Canada forfeiting bank accounts. When such policies are normalized we can expect much more of this. Completely untrue. Civil forfeiture is a uniquely American experience. The Emergencies Act will not lead to broad civil forfeiture in Canada. That is, the Prime Minister of Canada freezing bank accounts will not grant Canadian police officers the ability to seize your assets indefinitely without trial. It is rhetorically convenient to try to link freezing a bank account to civil forfeiture, but they are not the same thing.

kodah 5y ago
Civil Forfeiture money can be returned. It usually goes into some kind of escrow system. It is very much like freezing a bank account in outcome because it denies the accused the financial ability to defend themselves or to defend themselves at their own detriment. Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_forfeiture_in_the_United_States https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_forfeiture_in_the_Unit... While I focused on the outcome above, I think both violate the "presumption of innocence" attitude that our legal system is supposed to be built around. Edit I don't watch the news, so I didn't know what's happening in Canada. Here's some links: https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/ottawa-protests-frozen-bank-accounts-1.6355396 https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/ottawa-protests-frozen-bank... https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-60383385 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-60383385 This is fairly wild on every level.
- klyrs 5y ago
  In the article, the victims were forced to sell assets, including a house, almost certainly at a loss, to satisfy the FBI's demands. Two years later, the money is returned. Do they get interest on that money? Did the money appreciate as quickly as the house would in Seattle's housing bubble? As far as I can tell, frozen bank accounts continue to accrue interest at their normal rate. The relative impacts are very different.
  - kodah 5y ago
    Civil Forfeiture can cover anything including a house. That's one of the very legitimate criticisms of it. In this story, money was taken and they had to sell their house to cover legal and living expenses. If you freeze assets the same thing can, and commonly does, happen. Civil Forfeiture is definitely awful, but so is freezing someones assets is my point.

A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago

It is not forfeiture. It is actually worse. It is using the system in ways that AML/BSA people in US warned the Patriot Act would inevitably evolve into. The only surprise is it happened in Canada first. The system is in place to muzzle anyone and everyone that would dream of thinking of getting out of line.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]