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Things like this and yet HN continues to be anti-cryptocurrency. Does anyone understand why?

PragmaticPulp 5y ago
Cryptocurrency doesn’t free you from the law. If he had kept the money in cryptocurrency then they’d just imprison him until it was turned over.
- rosndo 5y ago
  But if you used Monero, they’d have a harder time proving what funds you may have access to.
  - AlexandrB 5y ago
    How this will probably play out: FBI agent: What cryptocurrency assets do you own? You: 2 BTC, 1 ETH. FBI agent: We found some Monero transactions in your past, we think you're holding XMR and lying to an FBI agent about it. Off to jail for you.
    - symlinkk 5y ago
      > we think They need evidence
      - rosndo 5y ago
        More specifically for a criminal case they’d need evidence beyond reasonable doubt, no?
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - gruez 5y ago
      >FBI agent: What cryptocurrency assets do you own? >You: 2 BTC, 1 ETH. bzzzt You're supposed to remain silent, not expose yourself by lying.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - bbitmaster 5y ago
      John McAfee claimed they were doing this to him before he "suicided".
  - PragmaticPulp 5y ago
    Doesn't matter. If the FBI has records of you transferring money to an exchange and then you claim it just "disappeared" after reaching the exchange, they're going to roll their eyes. The crimes in question involved real estate deals with paper trails. They also have transcripts of conversations where the partners acknowledge what they're doing is wrong and could potentially trigger an FBI investigation. Monero won't save anyone from that.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - rosndo 5y ago
      Or you could just accidentally drop your laptop in the sea and then wait a decade or two before selling the Moneroj in another country? The first part you can do with any cryptocurrency, the anonymity provided by Monero may allow you to succeed at the second.
    - ranger_danger 5y ago
      There are several ways to get crypto (including Monero) without touching an exchange.
- csee 5y ago
  That's true, but at the same time let's not downplay the ways that self-custodial crypto may be a bulwark against authoritarian governments. I am not labelling Canada an authoritarian government by any means, but widespread self-custodial crypto would have made their response (freezing bank accounts) far harder to pull off.
LightHugger 5y ago
Cryptocurrency will not save you from a trillion dollar company sending the fbi to bust down the door and steal everything you have. they will compel you to hand over any reported crypto holdings and throw you in prison if you refuse.
- gruez 5y ago
  >they will compel you to hand over any reported crypto holdings and throw you in prison if you refuse. Has this been tested in court? If your crypto is stored in a brainwallet, you can invoke fifth amendment rights to prevent that from being divulged.
  - AlexandrB 5y ago
    IANAL, but the fifth amendment gives you a right against self-incrimination. It doesn't allow you to lie or refuse to answer questions about assets that are not part of any crime. Edit: Civil asset forfeiture already runs afoul of the fifth, and no one seems to care: > nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
    - gruez 5y ago
      >It doesn't allow you to lie or refuse to answer questions "right to remain silent" is literally for that purpose. There are ways around it, if the government grants you immunity, but it's still far more onerous than freezing a bank account or invoking civil forefiture. Not to mention, disclosure of the key and/or wallet addresses may plausibly result in you incriminating yourself (eg. by proving that you bought drugs on silk road or whatever).
- tmarice 5y ago
  Hand over what? I lost it all in a boating accident. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mN_P39xI1ss https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mN_P39xI1ss
  - 5y ago
jrockway 5y ago
How does cryptocurrency prevent the FBI from breaking down your door over allegations of 'depriving the company of [your] “honest services”'?
- gruez 5y ago
  >How does cryptocurrency prevent the FBI from breaking down your door The article is literally titled "The Day Amazon Sent the FBI to Take My Family’s Bank Accounts" (emphasis mine). I'd imagine the FBI would have a much harder time to seize someone's crypto wallet than freezing their bank accounts.
- AlexCoventry 5y ago
  It gives you some recourse in this scenario from the fine article: > After they knew we had no money to pay for legal representation [due to the asset seizure], Amazon’s lawyers sued my husband in federal court. If we can’t afford to defend ourselves, Amazon automatically wins.
joelbondurant0 5y ago
[dead]

Cryptocurrency doesn’t free you from the law. If he had kept the money in cryptocurrency then they’d just imprison him until it was turned over.

rosndo 5y ago
But if you used Monero, they’d have a harder time proving what funds you may have access to.
- AlexandrB 5y ago
  How this will probably play out: FBI agent: What cryptocurrency assets do you own? You: 2 BTC, 1 ETH. FBI agent: We found some Monero transactions in your past, we think you're holding XMR and lying to an FBI agent about it. Off to jail for you.
  - symlinkk 5y ago
    > we think They need evidence
    - rosndo 5y ago
      More specifically for a criminal case they’d need evidence beyond reasonable doubt, no?
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - gruez 5y ago
    >FBI agent: What cryptocurrency assets do you own? >You: 2 BTC, 1 ETH. bzzzt You're supposed to remain silent, not expose yourself by lying.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - bbitmaster 5y ago
    John McAfee claimed they were doing this to him before he "suicided".
- PragmaticPulp 5y ago
  Doesn't matter. If the FBI has records of you transferring money to an exchange and then you claim it just "disappeared" after reaching the exchange, they're going to roll their eyes. The crimes in question involved real estate deals with paper trails. They also have transcripts of conversations where the partners acknowledge what they're doing is wrong and could potentially trigger an FBI investigation. Monero won't save anyone from that.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - rosndo 5y ago
    Or you could just accidentally drop your laptop in the sea and then wait a decade or two before selling the Moneroj in another country? The first part you can do with any cryptocurrency, the anonymity provided by Monero may allow you to succeed at the second.
  - ranger_danger 5y ago
    There are several ways to get crypto (including Monero) without touching an exchange.
csee 5y ago
That's true, but at the same time let's not downplay the ways that self-custodial crypto may be a bulwark against authoritarian governments. I am not labelling Canada an authoritarian government by any means, but widespread self-custodial crypto would have made their response (freezing bank accounts) far harder to pull off.

LightHugger 5y ago

Cryptocurrency will not save you from a trillion dollar company sending the fbi to bust down the door and steal everything you have. they will compel you to hand over any reported crypto holdings and throw you in prison if you refuse.

gruez 5y ago
>they will compel you to hand over any reported crypto holdings and throw you in prison if you refuse. Has this been tested in court? If your crypto is stored in a brainwallet, you can invoke fifth amendment rights to prevent that from being divulged.
- AlexandrB 5y ago
  IANAL, but the fifth amendment gives you a right against self-incrimination. It doesn't allow you to lie or refuse to answer questions about assets that are not part of any crime. Edit: Civil asset forfeiture already runs afoul of the fifth, and no one seems to care: > nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
  - gruez 5y ago
    >It doesn't allow you to lie or refuse to answer questions "right to remain silent" is literally for that purpose. There are ways around it, if the government grants you immunity, but it's still far more onerous than freezing a bank account or invoking civil forefiture. Not to mention, disclosure of the key and/or wallet addresses may plausibly result in you incriminating yourself (eg. by proving that you bought drugs on silk road or whatever).
tmarice 5y ago
Hand over what? I lost it all in a boating accident. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mN_P39xI1ss https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mN_P39xI1ss
- 5y ago

jrockway 5y ago

How does cryptocurrency prevent the FBI from breaking down your door over allegations of 'depriving the company of [your] “honest services”'?

gruez 5y ago
>How does cryptocurrency prevent the FBI from breaking down your door The article is literally titled "The Day Amazon Sent the FBI to Take My Family’s Bank Accounts" (emphasis mine). I'd imagine the FBI would have a much harder time to seize someone's crypto wallet than freezing their bank accounts.
AlexCoventry 5y ago
It gives you some recourse in this scenario from the fine article: > After they knew we had no money to pay for legal representation [due to the asset seizure], Amazon’s lawyers sued my husband in federal court. If we can’t afford to defend ourselves, Amazon automatically wins.

joelbondurant0 5y ago

[dead]