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As a Bay Area native who moved to Abu Dhabi / Dubai roughly four years ago, I have a lot of issues with the way the UAE is portrayed across sites like Hacker Ne
by _hhkg 5y ago
As a Bay Area native who moved to Abu Dhabi / Dubai roughly four years ago, I have a lot of issues with the way the UAE is portrayed across sites like Hacker News and Reddit. A lot of them are in the comments for this story, focusing on all the negatives of the country, structural racism, human rights abuse, etc and we certainly have a right to raise these things (of which I actively fight against here every day). That being said however, this young country does also have many positives to it that go unnoticed by those across the world since they're rarely reported. They may be small, but they are accomplishments nonetheless, such as a couple years ago being the "Year of Tolerance" where the gov't focused on bring inclusivity in their own way to the country, or bringing the Pope to this country on his first ever visit to the Gulf, or even the religious centers that are being built in Abu Dhabi that celebrate Jewish, Muslim and Christian history. For a country hardly 50 years old, it's come a long way. Just this year, a lot of laws such as having children out of wedlock, marijuana / alcohol, not requiring a local partner for business, etc., have all been relaxed and this is just the beginning. They've also introduced a variety of labor laws (though I don't think they're being followed by the owners of these companies, but that's a qualm for another day)
I don't want to get across that this country is good or bad, but that it's _complex_ (just like most countries). I do personally believe that the leadership of the country is trying to make a positive impact, though it's usually in ways that aren't reported in the media and... that's all I want put out there, just to bring some nuance to the conversation.
Having said all that, going back to the long-form article, I will say only one thing, debt is something that's really scary to have here since AFAIK, it's illegal in Islam, so the credit card system tends to be strangely designed and if I was ever in debt to this country or any of these Arab countries, I'd stay far away from here.
- codechad 5y agoYou wax poetically about UAE (mostly emotion, little fact), then remind the reader that it is an Islamic dictatorship. Why would any intelligent person ever set foot there? I'd lose over half of my current rights as it stands.
- lmm 5y agoIt's easy to think you have a lot of rights until you try to do something unpopular with them. I left the west for somewhere where I have a lot fewer rights on paper, but I feel so much freer now, no longer constantly worrying about what the mob thinks of everything I say. I won't defend the UAE, but the level of freedom you have in actual daily life is surprisingly disconnected from what's written in a constitution or what the government is doing.
- codechad 5y ago> It's easy to think you have a lot of rights until you try to do something unpopular with them Nonsense argument. Lacks details and specifics. > I left the west for somewhere where I have a lot fewer rights on paper, but I feel so much freer now, no longer constantly worrying about what the mob thinks of everything I say. That's where you fucked up: Caring about what [random] people think about you. Also I would love to know what country you feel more free in. For some reason I suspect this will not be answered. > I won't defend the UAE, but the level of freedom you have in actual daily life is surprisingly disconnected from what's written in a constitution or what the government is doing. More blah blah blah nonsense. Examples, give them. I have numerous freedoms I exercise daily (speech, worship, association, ownership of war weapons).
- lmm 5y ago> Nonsense argument. Lacks details and specifics. Does this really not match your experience of how things have been going lately? Freedom of speech and association but that doesn't prevent you from being fired for what you say or who you associate with. Free to protest unless there's a risk your protest might have an effect, then a state of emergency will be declared and the police will explain how they can legally kidnap your dog. > That's where you fucked up: Caring about what [random] people think about you. Also I would love to know what country you feel more free in. Japan, FWIW. I could be deported if I took part in political activities, there are significant restrictions on my speech (strict libel laws). But I have a supportive local community and strong employment protection, both things that count for a lot.
- jevoten 5y ago> not requiring a local partner for business Are you sure this is a good thing? It opens the country to foreign economic exploitation. There's a reason China required it for so long.
- brthsim 5y agoAnyone who says "We certainly have a right to raise [...] (issues with) racism, human rights abuse, etc." and immediately follows with "That being said however", is automatically not entitled to an opinion. You're clearly biased and enfatuated with the richness of the country and easy access to slavery and are more than content of looking the other way.
- CJefferson 5y agoDoes the same apply to America? Plenty of racism, people shot in their homes by police, Guantanamo Bay still open.
- throw__away7391 5y agoI really think an educational program is needed to take people from the US to visit some non-western countries with "human rights issues" and see what this actually looks like for a bit to cure this kind of whataboutism deflections that crop up anytime criticisms are made of conditions for people in foreign countries.
- logicchains 5y ago>take people from the US to visit some non-western countries with "human rights issues" and see what this actually looks like for a bit I'm sure once they come to Dubai they'll be horrified how the streets aren't covered in human shit and used needles.
- throw__away7391 5y agoI almost feel like you're proving my point. Try going outside the tourist districts. Nobody is complaining that the streets of downtown Dubai are dirty, they're complaining that they're being cleaned by slave labor.
- brthsim 5y ago
- refurb 5y agoI upvoted you because it’s easy to shit on countries. Sure, Dubai may not reach the level Western democracies have, but they also didn’t start at the same point as well. That doesn’t excuse the shortcomings, but maybe explains them. Western democracies in Europe and North America didn’t spring up overnight. You’re looking at 800+ years of developing a broadly accepted set of human rights.
- whywhywhywhy 5y agoThe mental gymnastics people will do to excuse that place are insane. Honestly can't imagine anyone would be this forgiving of it's bigotry if it wasn't so rich.
- whywhywhywhy 5y agoFunny how what would be extremely backward and illegal beliefs in the west just become "complicated" once huge amounts of money are involved.
- circlefavshape 5y agoI don't think beliefs are illegal anywhere in the west
- bigthymer 5y agoDebt is not illegal in Islam.
- _hhkg 5y agoYou’re right, just reading more on the topic now, it’s a punishable offense, not illegal. My mistake thanks for pointing this out
- throwaway_dcnt 5y agoInterest is punishable, debt, not so much.
- bigthymer 5y agoEven this is not entirely true.
- unmole 5y agoIn which country is it a punishable offense?
- mabbo 5y agoYou remind me of myself when I used to work for Amazon. I'd also spend a lot of time explaining to friends how "It's complicated" and "You know, they also do a lot of good things". But the reality I wouldn't admit to myself was much simpler: they were doing awful things, but I was willing to work for them as long as they paid me enough and made my life comfortable enough. It's very uncomfortable to admit to yourself that your ethics and morals have a price. I hope yours was high enough.
- _hhkg 5y agoI appreciate the thought, but I’d raise the same thing I mentioned in the other comment, that I’m here for humanitarian reasons rather than simply trying to “strike it rich” or something. My ethics and morals are incredibly important to me and you suggesting that just by merely being present in this country without knowing why is in someway selling myself out is presumptuous. I’ll add something else, as someone who has faced racism growing up in the Bay Area very very often, I’m sensitive to it and it’s something I push back on every time I’m faced with it here.
- wnscooke 5y agoI’m curious about your stated reason for being there. Dubai gives Humanitarian visas to foreigners? To work in its own country (which then means it’s admitting it needs help)? I guess the host company is Dubaian? With all sincerity, I’m curious.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- mabbo 5y agoYou know, I do owe you an apology. That was snarky as hell and I don't know your situation. Sorry.
- _hhkg 5y agoNot a problem, appreciate it
- hassancf 5y agoDebt is NOT illegal in Islam. Debt is debt, that’s it, you’re supposed to pay it back. Not a reason to criminalize a debt the way the UAE does it. Islam has nothing to do with this. Other things you mentioned are NOT complex: Slavery, exploitation, lack of rule of law, lack of human rights, lack of women rights etc Let’s not give the UAE a pass here. People go to the UAE to make money. They re not there from some “intellectually difficult to explain” reason. Pure $$$.
- fennecfoxy 5y agoI take the salt the Earth approach with countries that would imprison me, as a gay man for being gay. Or countries where simply being born a woman affords you fewer rights. I have zero respect for the UAE. Your argument is a logical fallacy. Yes I'm sure the UAE is improving, but that doesn't mean we should stop vilifying it for the terribly evil laws it has and things it does. It's not "complex", there's just no motivation to make actual, sweeping change, only token change to appeal to the West, whom the UAE relies on to do business with. Dubai should not exist, it's an artificial Oasis in the desert in a world where global warming is becoming a serious threat. Dubai was built on slave labour.