11 ms·

All I ever hear is horror stories about this place: environmental destruction, structural racism, serious abuse of human rights, culturally hyper conservative,

by retube 5y ago

All I ever hear is horror stories about this place: environmental destruction, structural racism, serious abuse of human rights, culturally hyper conservative, corrupt legal system, plus it's absurdly hot. I can't believe anyone would voluntarily go there, seems like hell on earth.

ycombinete 5y ago
Because almost no one who moves to Dubai for a middle class job will ever experience any of the things you’ve listed except for the heat. What they do experience is earning lots of tax-free money, and a vibrant city life. Obviously those negatives are all present but less of a threat than one might think from the outside. Perhaps that seems like too much of a risk to some people. But to others, who aren’t living in “heaven-on-earth” first world countries it’s an easy gamble to make. (Culturally hyper-conservative is especially hilarious for anyone who has been to a Dubai brunch.)
- baybal2 5y ago
  > Obviously those negatives are all present but less of a threat than one might think from the outside. I doubt anybody who lived in the gulf for at least a year never been a witnness to extremely harsh treatment of debtors firsthand. I myself knew a person who went to a debtor prison over a parking ticket.
- Retric 5y ago
  The UEA tramples on a lot of middle class people, but most don’t get any press coverage.
  - baybal2 5y ago
    Yes, and not only foreigners. There are plenty of poor Emiratis in fact. This comes as a surprise to a lot of people who never been to UAE. The percentage of uber-rich natives is grossly overestated by the popular image of the country. Nor there are that many really rich expats, unless with businesses outside of UAE, and who only come there to spend. UAE is not a good place to make money in, but it's often a first choice for MNCs to setup in the region, as anywhere else in the region is even worse. Only 10%-15% of the UAE population is somewhat close to American middle income standards.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- moralestapia 5y ago
  >no one who moves to Dubai for a middle class job will ever experience any of the things you’ve listed Sorry, but that is just not true. You're always one mistake away from losing all your rights and going through a miserable experience. This could happen to anyone who is basically not royalty or extremely high ranks, I've experienced it first-hand. Everyone knows this, so people are quite afraid to mess up, at any level. Ask any foreigner who has lived there (not just visited) for a while.
  - mbg721 5y ago
    How does it compare to Singapore in that aspect? I get the same impression there when people talk about how it all works really well until it doesn't.
    - logicchains 5y ago
      Dubai's much more honest about what it is; an absolutely monarchy that doesn't pretend to be a democracy. As long as you don't piss off the king or the locals, you're pretty much free to mind your own business and do whatever you want, especially if you're indirectly contributing to the king's real estate portfolio/the city's development. Singapore on the other hand is run by hall monitor types who believe they should have a say in every little aspect of how you live your life. Poor South Asian migrant workers are also treated better in Dubai. In Singapore they have a separate class of work visa with very limited rights, and during covid they were locked down in their worker dormitories for over a year, unable to interact with the rest of society.
      - mbg721 5y ago
        Fwiw, a high-school friend of mine had a t-shirt that said "Singapore: It's a Fine City!" and underneath, it listed various legal offenses (like gum-chewing) and their fines.
        bduerst 5y ago
        IIRC you can chew gum in singapore, you just can't buy or sell it (similar to weed laws in certain U.S. states).
- parthdesai 5y ago
  I sort of grew up in Saudi, but we were as middle class as they come. I'm not sure if you're South Asian, but if you are I'm pretty sure you experienced it at some point as well. You don't need to look further than how those South Asian laborers are treat to see abuse in human right. Or those Filipino nurses and maids. As a South Asian, you would definitely get the sense that locals would think less of you just because you're brown. Race hierarchy is basically White > Arabs >> Brown. That literally both abuse of human right and structural racism right there.
  - thematrixturtle 5y ago
    Local Arabs are definitely above White (and everybody else) in the race hierarchy. Expat Arabs, especially those not from the Gulf, may be lower. This is clearly visible at eg Riyadh immigration, where there are three unposted but universally observed lines: Gulf Arabs in white thobes, professionals of all sorts, and manual laborers.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- maccard 5y ago
  Right, like no middle class person has ever been detained on landing for drinking... [0]. > less of a threat than one might think from the outside. Until they're not. It's not like the "silly" laws in your country/state where you can duel on sundays and kill a man, these are applied grossly and unfairly to many people. [0] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/aug/10/woman-held-in-dubai-with-daughter-for-drinking-glass-of-wine-on-flight https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/aug/10/woman-held-in-...
waffle_maniac 5y ago
I think it might have to do with the difficulty of getting a tourist or work visa for the US or Europe when from a country with a weak passport.
smcl 5y ago
If you're a middle class European working in oil and you're a bit naive and insulated from that sort of news and current events then it's easy to miss. Dubai marketed itself well enough that many people just see one side of things, so they might believe it's a wealthy, paradise of capitalism where there are some poor foreign labourers but they don't fully appreciate the scale of the abuse. A few of my school friends moved out there (and Abu Dhabi), they see it as a sort of dream land where they can live a luxurious life they believe they thoroughly deserve and earned. They're a mixture of disbelieving there's some gross stuff going on and dismissive of its severity. An argument I've seen by one was that there are no countries that can escape criticism, which is true in a way but it just feels a bit more cruel and deliberate in the Gulf. So that explains a little bit of the indifference to the defacto slavery, however these sort of stories where the person suffering is white may give them pause for thought...
brk 5y ago
I've been to Dubai, and other parts of the UAE, a few times. It can be enjoyable for short durations, but I am not sure I'd want to live there long term. I am not saying the things you mentioned do not happen, but they're not as overly apparent as they are in some other parts of the Middle East, or China. The heat though, yeah, that's a thing. When you have air conditioned bus stops, it's a different level.
- morelisp 5y ago
  Of course it’s enjoyable for brief tourist/business visits, you’ve got literal slaves attending to you.
  - modriano 5y ago
    What's enjoyable about having literal slaves attending to you? I can't imagine literal slaves give off a pleasant vibe.
  - netsharc 5y ago
    A redditor living there once responded to "why would you be okay living in a country with slave labor?" by asking the commenter: who made the stuff they owned. Who mined the minerals for your electronics (probably exploited miners), who made your clothes (probably underpaid Bangladeshis). So the difference between the average Westerner and a Dubaian is the distance the slaves are to the consumer.
    - ohyoutravel 5y ago
      This is a very Reddit take, I think. The distinction is significantly more nuanced. Distance and percentage of slave labor used changes culpability, for example. I would argue that a person having a slave wait on them directly for all needs creates significantly more culpability than the fact that the lithium in my iPhone battery may or may not have come from some class of exploited labor worlds away from me. Further, while the slave owner could divest themselves of slaves directly, I don’t think there is any way for a modern westerner to rid themselves of anything in the supply chain of their lives of same. It doesn’t make it right, but these things are not equivalent.
thematrixturtle 5y ago
Saudi Arabia is considerably worse on every aspect, it just gets even less press.
- baybal2 5y ago
  Totally correct. It's a North Korea with oil, and welfare programs, and, now, rave parties* * https://youtu.be/8PBz9yaPksM https://youtu.be/8PBz9yaPksM
  - parthdesai 5y ago
    "rave" parties. Is it really a rave if people aren't rolling their balls off? :P
- bryanrasmussen 5y ago
  this is sort of like saying the second tier of hell on earth is really quite nice in comparison to the ninth tier.
  - thematrixturtle 5y ago
    Well, yes. If I were a woman, I would absolutely opt for Dubai over Saudi, even though both would suck compared to most other options.
- feupan 5y ago
  To be fair, SA isn’t touted as a dream destination for tourists, but quite the opposite: Tourists can’t enter. Dubai sells this luxury destination dream literally built by slaves.
  - rastignack 5y ago
    That’s not true. Saudi Arabia wants to become a major touristic place.
    - deleted 5y ago
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
dirtyid 5y ago
It's good place to be a comfortable service expat, Dubai in particular, relatively small city with world class accoutrements. Break neck change in development and culture. Life's fine for these folks if they behave and accept relatively privileged position on pecking order.
4ggr0 5y ago
Sounds like Texas to be honest. wink wink.
Aspos 5y ago
Those horror stories are mostly propaganda amplified in echo chambers of people who have never been to Dubai. Take this "slavery" nonsense for example. There is literally no difference between migration regime of a low-skilled worker and a highly-paid "expat". Rules are the same and they are way softer than, for example, H1B. Millions used to be spent on smearing Dubai, so we will be hearing echoes of those "horror stories" for many years. Other horror stories, which are not propaganda, are coming from cultural deafness. A Brit gets drunk, engages in sex on a public beach and then cries about "savage laws" when gets arrested. When in Rome, do like Romans, but some people think their view is better than anyone else's. I've seen Brits who think British laws should apply to them wherever they go.
- hgomersall 5y ago
  Ah yes, cultural relativism! Justifying barbaric behaviour since, well, the Barbarians.
  - Aspos 5y ago
    Well, that is what I mean: some people divide the world to "civilized" and "barbaric" and anything that does not fit their world view must be barbaric of course.
    - hgomersall 5y ago
      I see no reason to declare any part of the world civilized. Some countries are further down the road to being civilized, but we should always be asking what needs improving.
    - bitcharmer 5y ago
      That you're unable to perceive the difference doesn't mean it's non-existent. People who travel the world will tell you that there are differences in civilisation advancement and human rights between countries and regions. To claim otherwise is just denying facts.
      - 5y ago
roystonvassey 5y ago
Even visiting the place as a tourist left a bad taste - everything is made up, the service industry is mostly unfriendly (our sightseeing bus left us stranded somewhere and then later on the desert trip, the car broke down middle of nowhere and the driver had no other help so we had to help him fix it), no public transport to speak of, fanciest cars on one side and hapless labourers trudging in the heat alongside. Apart from the choice/variety of food, I cannot think of any redeeming feature about Dubai.
- lm28469 5y ago
  > everything is made up I've never been to this country but I've been to Vegas once and I somehow expect the whole experience to be very similar and to attract the same kind of people
- selestify 5y ago
  > the service industry is mostly unfriendly Sorry to hear about your experience. Mine was wildly different, and I came away with entirely opposite impressions of their service industry. > no public transport to speak of How did you manage to miss all the huge flashy light rail stations? It was really convenient to use for travel throughout the city. Especially as a tourist -- just about all tourist destinations are close to a station.
apohn 5y ago
I say this as somebody who lived in one of those Middle Eastern countries for a good period of my life. I'm not a white person and at that time I didn't have a US/European passport, so I didn't lead an extra privalaged life there. Here's what you can hear about the USA. 1)Endless suburban sprawl, resulting in massive environmental destruction. Illegal immigrants heavily involved in the construction industry, leading to mass exploitation 2)Structural racism 3)Human rights on a sliding scale, with rich white rapists getting no jail sentences, and poor black people and immigrants going to jail for minor offenses. 4)Rich consumers pushing environmental and human rights issues to poor countries where people are exploited to build your $1000 phone and $250 shoe. 5)Lots of places where if you go and say "I'm an Atheist, Jesus is not God" will likely result in violence against you 6)Corrupt legal system, heavily favoring corporations and rich people 7)Absurdly hot in parts of it, Absurdly cold in other parts of it. >I can't believe anyone would voluntarily go there, seems like hell on earth. Lots of people probably feel that way about the USA based on the news. UAE (Dubai, Abu Dhabi), and other countries in that region, have a lot of issues. I'll be the first to admit it having had second class status there. But I can't help but feel that a lot of Western news outlets love to bash that part of the world because it plays into how a lot of people like to feel like the rest of the world is a shithole.
- dogman144 5y ago
  Qatar is not Dubai, but when was the last time you heard of 6,500 migrant workers dying building a group of soccer stadiums/olympic village/large public works in the USA? That is to say, that region's rep comes from a bit more than stereotypes or a filtering bubble.
  - lowbloodsugar 5y ago
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - dogman144 5y ago
onlyrealcuzzo 5y ago
> plus it's absurdly hot Most of the places people visit and live aren't absurdly hot. The largest cities in the middle east BY FAR are Ciaro, Tehran, Istanbul, and Baghdad. Cairo is hot most of the year - but one of these places are hotter than Phoenix - which is currently one of the places people are moving to in droves in the US Tehran & Istanbul, for example, aren't even much hotter than Los Angeles: https://weatherspark.com/y/105125/Average-Weather-in-Tehran-Iran-Year-Round https://weatherspark.com/y/105125/Average-Weather-in-Tehran-... If you think Los Angeles has bad weather - you're just out of touch with almost everyone else in the world. Riyadh and Dubai are VERY HOT. KSA is its own strange destination from a Western perspective. It's mostly religious. But Dubai is similar to Las Vegas and Miami in many ways - in the crowd it attracts and what people do there. It's still much hotter - I agree, don't know how people do it there.
- aliswe 5y ago
  Someone I know would never move to Riyadh because its too cold - it goes down to zero some winters!
aziom23 5y ago
> I can't believe anyone would voluntarily go there, seems like hell on earth This is an extremely privileged way to think, and I am guessing, you are from a western country. You have had good access to food, and education while growing up. Just a guess... Families, who are on the borderline, or are deep in poverty, in countries such as Pakistan, India, or Bangladesh, go over there for opportunity. They will drive taxis, or work in construction, to send money back, and the remittance is massive. In the billions. It has helped people I know personally get out of poverty, and the children are now being educated in UK universities. These are people who grew up in South Asian villages without much hope. I grew up in a country next to UAE, and it gave me excellent education in one of the best private schools around, exposure to many cultures, and I am now living in the US based on my life there. But then again, I do hear from Africans in Southern Africa, why any minority would step foot into the US based on what they see in the news, and yet we have many risking their lives to cross a hostile desert region.
danans 5y ago
> environmental destruction, structural racism, serious abuse of human rights, culturally hyper conservative, corrupt legal system, plus it's absurdly hot. You forgot one: world's premier shopping mall destination.
throw_m239339 5y ago
> culturally hyper conservative, Dubai is literally one of the biggest prostitution hub on the planet for western prostitutes. Google "yatching". "server human rights abuse" is an understatement, it's straight out slavery practiced there, legal slavery.
midjji 5y ago
So the why is pretty simple, effective wages after taxes(which are pretty much zero), are 3-7 times higher there. It does not matter if you are a Pakistani prostitute, or a silicon valley programmer, an Indian construction worker, or a British engineer, they will pay you a salary three to seven times higher after taxes than what you make at home. Further, if you dont have the merits for some well paid job, but they need someone to do it right now, they will pretend you do. So junior programmer with a half finished degree and half a year of experience as a web dev, but they need a senior engineer. Please welcome our senior engineer, and yeah the salary is 3-5x a senior engineer position. The downside is that when they call, you say yes today, dont ask about anything other than salary and start on monday, no matter where you happen to live at the moment or if you are still employed etc. Oh and if you work there and are white, you write Christian on everything. That way, if you get thrown in prison, you can convert and ask to be released. Its not easy, but it is one of the few ways to get out if it really goes to shit. If you work there and are arab or look arab, you are muslim, and the right kind. If you are black... dont, just dont...

by retube 5y ago

ycombinete 5y ago

Because almost no one who moves to Dubai for a middle class job will ever experience any of the things you’ve listed except for the heat. What they do experience is earning lots of tax-free money, and a vibrant city life. Obviously those negatives are all present but less of a threat than one might think from the outside. Perhaps that seems like too much of a risk to some people. But to others, who aren’t living in “heaven-on-earth” first world countries it’s an easy gamble to make. (Culturally hyper-conservative is especially hilarious for anyone who has been to a Dubai brunch.)

baybal2 5y ago
> Obviously those negatives are all present but less of a threat than one might think from the outside. I doubt anybody who lived in the gulf for at least a year never been a witnness to extremely harsh treatment of debtors firsthand. I myself knew a person who went to a debtor prison over a parking ticket.
Retric 5y ago
The UEA tramples on a lot of middle class people, but most don’t get any press coverage.
- baybal2 5y ago
  Yes, and not only foreigners. There are plenty of poor Emiratis in fact. This comes as a surprise to a lot of people who never been to UAE. The percentage of uber-rich natives is grossly overestated by the popular image of the country. Nor there are that many really rich expats, unless with businesses outside of UAE, and who only come there to spend. UAE is not a good place to make money in, but it's often a first choice for MNCs to setup in the region, as anywhere else in the region is even worse. Only 10%-15% of the UAE population is somewhat close to American middle income standards.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
moralestapia 5y ago
>no one who moves to Dubai for a middle class job will ever experience any of the things you’ve listed Sorry, but that is just not true. You're always one mistake away from losing all your rights and going through a miserable experience. This could happen to anyone who is basically not royalty or extremely high ranks, I've experienced it first-hand. Everyone knows this, so people are quite afraid to mess up, at any level. Ask any foreigner who has lived there (not just visited) for a while.
- mbg721 5y ago
  How does it compare to Singapore in that aspect? I get the same impression there when people talk about how it all works really well until it doesn't.
  - logicchains 5y ago
    Dubai's much more honest about what it is; an absolutely monarchy that doesn't pretend to be a democracy. As long as you don't piss off the king or the locals, you're pretty much free to mind your own business and do whatever you want, especially if you're indirectly contributing to the king's real estate portfolio/the city's development. Singapore on the other hand is run by hall monitor types who believe they should have a say in every little aspect of how you live your life. Poor South Asian migrant workers are also treated better in Dubai. In Singapore they have a separate class of work visa with very limited rights, and during covid they were locked down in their worker dormitories for over a year, unable to interact with the rest of society.
    - mbg721 5y ago
      Fwiw, a high-school friend of mine had a t-shirt that said "Singapore: It's a Fine City!" and underneath, it listed various legal offenses (like gum-chewing) and their fines.
      - bduerst 5y ago
        IIRC you can chew gum in singapore, you just can't buy or sell it (similar to weed laws in certain U.S. states).
parthdesai 5y ago
I sort of grew up in Saudi, but we were as middle class as they come. I'm not sure if you're South Asian, but if you are I'm pretty sure you experienced it at some point as well. You don't need to look further than how those South Asian laborers are treat to see abuse in human right. Or those Filipino nurses and maids. As a South Asian, you would definitely get the sense that locals would think less of you just because you're brown. Race hierarchy is basically White > Arabs >> Brown. That literally both abuse of human right and structural racism right there.
- thematrixturtle 5y ago
  Local Arabs are definitely above White (and everybody else) in the race hierarchy. Expat Arabs, especially those not from the Gulf, may be lower. This is clearly visible at eg Riyadh immigration, where there are three unposted but universally observed lines: Gulf Arabs in white thobes, professionals of all sorts, and manual laborers.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
maccard 5y ago
Right, like no middle class person has ever been detained on landing for drinking... [0]. > less of a threat than one might think from the outside. Until they're not. It's not like the "silly" laws in your country/state where you can duel on sundays and kill a man, these are applied grossly and unfairly to many people. [0] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/aug/10/woman-held-in-dubai-with-daughter-for-drinking-glass-of-wine-on-flight https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/aug/10/woman-held-in-...

waffle_maniac 5y ago

I think it might have to do with the difficulty of getting a tourist or work visa for the US or Europe when from a country with a weak passport.

smcl 5y ago

If you're a middle class European working in oil and you're a bit naive and insulated from that sort of news and current events then it's easy to miss. Dubai marketed itself well enough that many people just see one side of things, so they might believe it's a wealthy, paradise of capitalism where there are some poor foreign labourers but they don't fully appreciate the scale of the abuse. A few of my school friends moved out there (and Abu Dhabi), they see it as a sort of dream land where they can live a luxurious life they believe they thoroughly deserve and earned. They're a mixture of disbelieving there's some gross stuff going on and dismissive of its severity. An argument I've seen by one was that there are no countries that can escape criticism, which is true in a way but it just feels a bit more cruel and deliberate in the Gulf. So that explains a little bit of the indifference to the defacto slavery, however these sort of stories where the person suffering is white may give them pause for thought...

brk 5y ago

I've been to Dubai, and other parts of the UAE, a few times. It can be enjoyable for short durations, but I am not sure I'd want to live there long term. I am not saying the things you mentioned do not happen, but they're not as overly apparent as they are in some other parts of the Middle East, or China. The heat though, yeah, that's a thing. When you have air conditioned bus stops, it's a different level.

morelisp 5y ago
Of course it’s enjoyable for brief tourist/business visits, you’ve got literal slaves attending to you.
- modriano 5y ago
  What's enjoyable about having literal slaves attending to you? I can't imagine literal slaves give off a pleasant vibe.
- netsharc 5y ago
  A redditor living there once responded to "why would you be okay living in a country with slave labor?" by asking the commenter: who made the stuff they owned. Who mined the minerals for your electronics (probably exploited miners), who made your clothes (probably underpaid Bangladeshis). So the difference between the average Westerner and a Dubaian is the distance the slaves are to the consumer.
  - ohyoutravel 5y ago
    This is a very Reddit take, I think. The distinction is significantly more nuanced. Distance and percentage of slave labor used changes culpability, for example. I would argue that a person having a slave wait on them directly for all needs creates significantly more culpability than the fact that the lithium in my iPhone battery may or may not have come from some class of exploited labor worlds away from me. Further, while the slave owner could divest themselves of slaves directly, I don’t think there is any way for a modern westerner to rid themselves of anything in the supply chain of their lives of same. It doesn’t make it right, but these things are not equivalent.

thematrixturtle 5y ago

Saudi Arabia is considerably worse on every aspect, it just gets even less press.

baybal2 5y ago
Totally correct. It's a North Korea with oil, and welfare programs, and, now, rave parties* * https://youtu.be/8PBz9yaPksM https://youtu.be/8PBz9yaPksM
- parthdesai 5y ago
  "rave" parties. Is it really a rave if people aren't rolling their balls off? :P
bryanrasmussen 5y ago
this is sort of like saying the second tier of hell on earth is really quite nice in comparison to the ninth tier.
- thematrixturtle 5y ago
  Well, yes. If I were a woman, I would absolutely opt for Dubai over Saudi, even though both would suck compared to most other options.
feupan 5y ago
To be fair, SA isn’t touted as a dream destination for tourists, but quite the opposite: Tourists can’t enter. Dubai sells this luxury destination dream literally built by slaves.
- rastignack 5y ago
  That’s not true. Saudi Arabia wants to become a major touristic place.
  - deleted 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

dirtyid 5y ago

It's good place to be a comfortable service expat, Dubai in particular, relatively small city with world class accoutrements. Break neck change in development and culture. Life's fine for these folks if they behave and accept relatively privileged position on pecking order.

4ggr0 5y ago

Sounds like Texas to be honest. wink wink.

Aspos 5y ago

Those horror stories are mostly propaganda amplified in echo chambers of people who have never been to Dubai. Take this "slavery" nonsense for example. There is literally no difference between migration regime of a low-skilled worker and a highly-paid "expat". Rules are the same and they are way softer than, for example, H1B. Millions used to be spent on smearing Dubai, so we will be hearing echoes of those "horror stories" for many years. Other horror stories, which are not propaganda, are coming from cultural deafness. A Brit gets drunk, engages in sex on a public beach and then cries about "savage laws" when gets arrested. When in Rome, do like Romans, but some people think their view is better than anyone else's. I've seen Brits who think British laws should apply to them wherever they go.

hgomersall 5y ago
Ah yes, cultural relativism! Justifying barbaric behaviour since, well, the Barbarians.
- Aspos 5y ago
  Well, that is what I mean: some people divide the world to "civilized" and "barbaric" and anything that does not fit their world view must be barbaric of course.
  - hgomersall 5y ago
    I see no reason to declare any part of the world civilized. Some countries are further down the road to being civilized, but we should always be asking what needs improving.
  - bitcharmer 5y ago
    That you're unable to perceive the difference doesn't mean it's non-existent. People who travel the world will tell you that there are differences in civilisation advancement and human rights between countries and regions. To claim otherwise is just denying facts.
    - 5y ago

roystonvassey 5y ago

Even visiting the place as a tourist left a bad taste - everything is made up, the service industry is mostly unfriendly (our sightseeing bus left us stranded somewhere and then later on the desert trip, the car broke down middle of nowhere and the driver had no other help so we had to help him fix it), no public transport to speak of, fanciest cars on one side and hapless labourers trudging in the heat alongside. Apart from the choice/variety of food, I cannot think of any redeeming feature about Dubai.

lm28469 5y ago
> everything is made up I've never been to this country but I've been to Vegas once and I somehow expect the whole experience to be very similar and to attract the same kind of people
selestify 5y ago
> the service industry is mostly unfriendly Sorry to hear about your experience. Mine was wildly different, and I came away with entirely opposite impressions of their service industry. > no public transport to speak of How did you manage to miss all the huge flashy light rail stations? It was really convenient to use for travel throughout the city. Especially as a tourist -- just about all tourist destinations are close to a station.

apohn 5y ago

I say this as somebody who lived in one of those Middle Eastern countries for a good period of my life. I'm not a white person and at that time I didn't have a US/European passport, so I didn't lead an extra privalaged life there. Here's what you can hear about the USA. 1)Endless suburban sprawl, resulting in massive environmental destruction. Illegal immigrants heavily involved in the construction industry, leading to mass exploitation 2)Structural racism 3)Human rights on a sliding scale, with rich white rapists getting no jail sentences, and poor black people and immigrants going to jail for minor offenses. 4)Rich consumers pushing environmental and human rights issues to poor countries where people are exploited to build your $1000 phone and $250 shoe. 5)Lots of places where if you go and say "I'm an Atheist, Jesus is not God" will likely result in violence against you 6)Corrupt legal system, heavily favoring corporations and rich people 7)Absurdly hot in parts of it, Absurdly cold in other parts of it. >I can't believe anyone would voluntarily go there, seems like hell on earth. Lots of people probably feel that way about the USA based on the news. UAE (Dubai, Abu Dhabi), and other countries in that region, have a lot of issues. I'll be the first to admit it having had second class status there. But I can't help but feel that a lot of Western news outlets love to bash that part of the world because it plays into how a lot of people like to feel like the rest of the world is a shithole.

dogman144 5y ago
Qatar is not Dubai, but when was the last time you heard of 6,500 migrant workers dying building a group of soccer stadiums/olympic village/large public works in the USA? That is to say, that region's rep comes from a bit more than stereotypes or a filtering bubble.
- lowbloodsugar 5y ago
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - dogman144 5y ago

onlyrealcuzzo 5y ago

> plus it's absurdly hot Most of the places people visit and live aren't absurdly hot. The largest cities in the middle east BY FAR are Ciaro, Tehran, Istanbul, and Baghdad. Cairo is hot most of the year - but one of these places are hotter than Phoenix - which is currently one of the places people are moving to in droves in the US Tehran & Istanbul, for example, aren't even much hotter than Los Angeles: https://weatherspark.com/y/105125/Average-Weather-in-Tehran-Iran-Year-Round https://weatherspark.com/y/105125/Average-Weather-in-Tehran-... If you think Los Angeles has bad weather - you're just out of touch with almost everyone else in the world. Riyadh and Dubai are VERY HOT. KSA is its own strange destination from a Western perspective. It's mostly religious. But Dubai is similar to Las Vegas and Miami in many ways - in the crowd it attracts and what people do there. It's still much hotter - I agree, don't know how people do it there.

aliswe 5y ago
Someone I know would never move to Riyadh because its too cold - it goes down to zero some winters!

aziom23 5y ago

> I can't believe anyone would voluntarily go there, seems like hell on earth This is an extremely privileged way to think, and I am guessing, you are from a western country. You have had good access to food, and education while growing up. Just a guess... Families, who are on the borderline, or are deep in poverty, in countries such as Pakistan, India, or Bangladesh, go over there for opportunity. They will drive taxis, or work in construction, to send money back, and the remittance is massive. In the billions. It has helped people I know personally get out of poverty, and the children are now being educated in UK universities. These are people who grew up in South Asian villages without much hope. I grew up in a country next to UAE, and it gave me excellent education in one of the best private schools around, exposure to many cultures, and I am now living in the US based on my life there. But then again, I do hear from Africans in Southern Africa, why any minority would step foot into the US based on what they see in the news, and yet we have many risking their lives to cross a hostile desert region.

danans 5y ago

> environmental destruction, structural racism, serious abuse of human rights, culturally hyper conservative, corrupt legal system, plus it's absurdly hot. You forgot one: world's premier shopping mall destination.

throw_m239339 5y ago

> culturally hyper conservative, Dubai is literally one of the biggest prostitution hub on the planet for western prostitutes. Google "yatching". "server human rights abuse" is an understatement, it's straight out slavery practiced there, legal slavery.

midjji 5y ago

So the why is pretty simple, effective wages after taxes(which are pretty much zero), are 3-7 times higher there. It does not matter if you are a Pakistani prostitute, or a silicon valley programmer, an Indian construction worker, or a British engineer, they will pay you a salary three to seven times higher after taxes than what you make at home. Further, if you dont have the merits for some well paid job, but they need someone to do it right now, they will pretend you do. So junior programmer with a half finished degree and half a year of experience as a web dev, but they need a senior engineer. Please welcome our senior engineer, and yeah the salary is 3-5x a senior engineer position. The downside is that when they call, you say yes today, dont ask about anything other than salary and start on monday, no matter where you happen to live at the moment or if you are still employed etc. Oh and if you work there and are white, you write Christian on everything. That way, if you get thrown in prison, you can convert and ask to be released. Its not easy, but it is one of the few ways to get out if it really goes to shit. If you work there and are arab or look arab, you are muslim, and the right kind. If you are black... dont, just dont...