3 ms·

I’m sure this is true, but I’m curious if you have any experience with this in another country? The one European country in which I’ve been in a university sett

I’m sure this is true, but I’m curious if you have any experience with this in another country? The one European country in which I’ve been in a university setting seemed to have similar tenure-pressure dynamics as in the US.

nicoburns 5y ago
The UK doesn't have Tenure. I think it's true that the academic pressures are similar, there's still not enough secure jobs for those who want them. But it does at least mean that professors have to continue performing to a reasonable standard if they expect to keep their jobs, and this frees up space for new people if they don't.
- pmyteh 5y ago
  Yes - formal tenure was abolished under Thatcher's government in the 80s. The academic job market here is also brutal, but it's brutal on admission to lectureships (tenure-track assistant professorships in the US). Once appointed on a 'permanent' contract there's no race for tenure: it's like an ordinary public-sector job where you can have a reasonable expectation of continuing employment but aren't immune from redundancy (==layoff) or dismissal for poor performance (which is quite rare). It's a better system for early-mid career academics than the US, IMO, and I'm glad I'm here. Other systems are better for other career stages: some European countries give PhD students actual employment protections and a salary, while life as a tenured full prof in Germany or the US is sweeter than the British equivalent. Doesn't stop the other grim employment aspects of modern academia, either: exploitation of hourly-paid PhD students for most of the teaching, far fewer posts than qualified applicants, eternal postdocry etc.
niek_pas 5y ago
Most universities in The Netherlands do not have a tenure-track system (no automatic promotion). It is not uncommon for faculty to retain the rank of assistant or associate professor until retirement, without ever becoming full professor.
- extra88 5y ago
  It's also common in the U.S. to have such faculty positions. Non-tenure-track positions that teach and keep up with their field but don't have "publish or perish" pressures.
- jhbadger 5y ago
  At least in the US, an "associate professor" is already tenured -- you don't have to be a full professor to be tenured -- you just have to get out of the assistant professor stage. There are of course non-tenure track positions such as "adjunct professors" which are generally hired on a year to year (or even semester to semester) basis.
  - balsam 5y ago
    The twitterer in question who was denied tenure was an associate professor at MIT according to his webpage: https://cesarhidalgo.com/ https://cesarhidalgo.com/
  - jasonfarnon 5y ago
    It depends on the university. Even in the same university (eg Stanford) it is possible to have associate professors with and without tenure, depending on department/school.

nicoburns 5y ago

The UK doesn't have Tenure. I think it's true that the academic pressures are similar, there's still not enough secure jobs for those who want them. But it does at least mean that professors have to continue performing to a reasonable standard if they expect to keep their jobs, and this frees up space for new people if they don't.

pmyteh 5y ago
Yes - formal tenure was abolished under Thatcher's government in the 80s. The academic job market here is also brutal, but it's brutal on admission to lectureships (tenure-track assistant professorships in the US). Once appointed on a 'permanent' contract there's no race for tenure: it's like an ordinary public-sector job where you can have a reasonable expectation of continuing employment but aren't immune from redundancy (==layoff) or dismissal for poor performance (which is quite rare). It's a better system for early-mid career academics than the US, IMO, and I'm glad I'm here. Other systems are better for other career stages: some European countries give PhD students actual employment protections and a salary, while life as a tenured full prof in Germany or the US is sweeter than the British equivalent. Doesn't stop the other grim employment aspects of modern academia, either: exploitation of hourly-paid PhD students for most of the teaching, far fewer posts than qualified applicants, eternal postdocry etc.

niek_pas 5y ago

Most universities in The Netherlands do not have a tenure-track system (no automatic promotion). It is not uncommon for faculty to retain the rank of assistant or associate professor until retirement, without ever becoming full professor.

extra88 5y ago
It's also common in the U.S. to have such faculty positions. Non-tenure-track positions that teach and keep up with their field but don't have "publish or perish" pressures.
jhbadger 5y ago
At least in the US, an "associate professor" is already tenured -- you don't have to be a full professor to be tenured -- you just have to get out of the assistant professor stage. There are of course non-tenure track positions such as "adjunct professors" which are generally hired on a year to year (or even semester to semester) basis.
- balsam 5y ago
  The twitterer in question who was denied tenure was an associate professor at MIT according to his webpage: https://cesarhidalgo.com/ https://cesarhidalgo.com/
- jasonfarnon 5y ago
  It depends on the university. Even in the same university (eg Stanford) it is possible to have associate professors with and without tenure, depending on department/school.