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The amount of outright hostility I've faced professionally for suggesting mob programming was staggering. Some developers really like to be left alone, and it'

The amount of outright hostility I've faced professionally for suggesting mob programming was staggering. Some developers really like to be left alone, and it's terrible for the business, but it's been an unspoken thing (or spoken, i.e. Maker Time) for so long that any attempt at disrupting the freedom triggers a substantial backlash. This looks like a lot of fun, I hope I'll be able to implement it someday...

zufallsheld 5y ago
I've personally not faced any outright hostility. However I notice much reserve about mob programming: "we already work together so we don't need this". But after really using the technique, most people found it great.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
hunterb123 5y ago
I'm one of those developers. I would be strongly against this. I occasionally enjoy live streaming code when I'm in the mood, but social things are draining and I'm usually not in the mood. My process is personal and doesn't come on demand.
- simonharrer 5y ago
  I think this is totally fine to not want to work that way. And on the other hand, there are people that, after having tried it out, like it so much, that they are strongly for this way of working. I think teams will form around both ways of working, and this might become a deciding factor on joining a team.
  - hunterb123 5y ago
    Certainly, people have different preferences. My point was to give my perspective from someone who would not like it, and how much I wouldn't like it. I would definitely look for another job if forced to do this type of coding, as it would be very uncomfortable. If it's optional that's great, but since it involves a team as its premise someone may be forced if the majority or the more influential people want it. In that case the minority can go find a place that respects their process, but the manager should know of that potential unintended side-effect.
qsort 5y ago
Why is it terrible for the business if developers are left alone? Personally I don't mind pair, live collab, etc., but I cannot really justify it productivity-wise. I just don't get as much stuff done as when I'm alone.
- TameAntelope 5y ago
  Developers are not the people who know what to build, so the productivity gains of being left alone are not productivity gains that make the business more valuable.
  - thingsgoup 5y ago
    Are you a developer?
    - TameAntelope 5y ago
      I work at a very small startup, there are very few things I don't do.
      - CRConrad 5y ago
        Is one of the things you do to decide what to develop? And is another of the things you do actual development? If yes to both, then there are apparently developers -- at least one developer! -- who decide what to develop. And if you are capable of doing that, then why should every other developer in the world be incapable of doing it?
        TameAntelope 5y ago
        Because every other developer in the world screeches and retreats to their lair when you so much as mention attending a single meeting, let alone the number of meetings and conversations with clients and leadership I have to keep up with what we need to build next. Additionally, for a dev to directly learn what to build, they’d need to work two full time jobs. Most prefer to do just the one job.
anentropic 5y ago
I've never done it but it sounds horrific to me, and also incredibly wasteful to have 5 people all just working on one bit of code. It's like you've single-threaded your team. Surely they don't do this all the time?
- sdoering 5y ago
  I would not do it all the time, but I imagine one benefit could be that the whole team is on one page, when it comes to a central complex part of the application's logic. Everybody is invested as everybody had (probably) their say and was part of the decision. Institutional knowledge is high across the whole team. This for the cost of single threading the team. It is a business call and might be a valuable and valid approach in some cases. I think it is a tool. A tool with a specific problem it solves. And if you use it all the time you are the worker that only has a hammer so that every problem looks like a nail (not you personally, but generally speaking). Being a data analyst I remember great sessions of pair and team analysis of a specific data problem. Some sucked and were unproductive but most were great if facilitated well.
  - anentropic 5y ago
    I can certainly see that, as a tool to use occasionally for critical, complex bits of the system. Or even as a team-building exercise. I had the impression some are advocating it as a default way of working though, and that seems so alien to me
Jensson 5y ago
It massively impacts how comfortable work is, it is kind of like suggesting that everyone wear business formal attire at work. Some loves formal business attire, are comfortable with it and wonder why not everyone would love to wear it as well, it is so much cleaner and you get taken more seriously!
throwaway5486nv 5y ago
> Some developers really like to be left alone, and it's terrible for the business The problem is sharing credit. What is the incentive for a good developer to share credit with a bad developer especially when the don't like each other? If you do mob programming how would you know who is making contribution and who is slacking and how to rate the performance. > The amount of outright hostility I've faced professionally for suggesting mob programming was staggering. For a good reason. In my experience great developers don't mind helping out but they expect to be recognized which is fair.
- TameAntelope 5y ago
  If you're a developer who cares about taking credit for work on a team, the very next thing you should do is figure out how to stop being a developer who cares about taking credit for work on a team, and basically nothing else.
  - phendrenad2 5y ago
    That doesn't work in the real world. In the real world, you'll encounter other people who try to take credit for a team effort. If your solution is to stop what you're doing and spend 100% of your time trying to figure out how to not care about it, you'll go homeless and starve before coming up with a realistic solution.
    - TameAntelope 5y ago
      It’s a problem that will make everything you do worse until you fix it, so yeah it’s worth solving first and foremost.
  - throwaway5486nv 5y ago
phendrenad2 5y ago
> Some developers really like to be left alone, and it's terrible for the business This is a vague generalization, so it's hard to argue against. The truth is, to accomplish anything difficult, developers need to be left alone to work on it. Ideally for a particularly difficult problem, you put one developer on the project and just wait for results. Of course, businesses don't like that, so you're usually forced to put several developers on the project (which makes it take longer). As a developer, I think I speak for all of us when I say that we've experienced needing to focus intently on a difficult problem, but management keeps interrupting it by demanding progress reports and giving you the "gift" of more junior developers to "help you out".
mbrodersen 5y ago
All it takes is one bad developer to kill the productivity of a group of developers. Especially when the bad developer is arrogant, stubborn, wants to be in control, have bad communication skills, needs everything explained in detail, easily take offence at imaginary insults etc. etc.

zufallsheld 5y ago

I've personally not faced any outright hostility. However I notice much reserve about mob programming: "we already work together so we don't need this". But after really using the technique, most people found it great.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

hunterb123 5y ago

I'm one of those developers. I would be strongly against this. I occasionally enjoy live streaming code when I'm in the mood, but social things are draining and I'm usually not in the mood. My process is personal and doesn't come on demand.

simonharrer 5y ago
I think this is totally fine to not want to work that way. And on the other hand, there are people that, after having tried it out, like it so much, that they are strongly for this way of working. I think teams will form around both ways of working, and this might become a deciding factor on joining a team.
- hunterb123 5y ago
  Certainly, people have different preferences. My point was to give my perspective from someone who would not like it, and how much I wouldn't like it. I would definitely look for another job if forced to do this type of coding, as it would be very uncomfortable. If it's optional that's great, but since it involves a team as its premise someone may be forced if the majority or the more influential people want it. In that case the minority can go find a place that respects their process, but the manager should know of that potential unintended side-effect.

qsort 5y ago

Why is it terrible for the business if developers are left alone? Personally I don't mind pair, live collab, etc., but I cannot really justify it productivity-wise. I just don't get as much stuff done as when I'm alone.

TameAntelope 5y ago
Developers are not the people who know what to build, so the productivity gains of being left alone are not productivity gains that make the business more valuable.
- thingsgoup 5y ago
  Are you a developer?
  - TameAntelope 5y ago
    I work at a very small startup, there are very few things I don't do.
    - CRConrad 5y ago
      Is one of the things you do to decide what to develop? And is another of the things you do actual development? If yes to both, then there are apparently developers -- at least one developer! -- who decide what to develop. And if you are capable of doing that, then why should every other developer in the world be incapable of doing it?
      - TameAntelope 5y ago
        Because every other developer in the world screeches and retreats to their lair when you so much as mention attending a single meeting, let alone the number of meetings and conversations with clients and leadership I have to keep up with what we need to build next. Additionally, for a dev to directly learn what to build, they’d need to work two full time jobs. Most prefer to do just the one job.

anentropic 5y ago

I've never done it but it sounds horrific to me, and also incredibly wasteful to have 5 people all just working on one bit of code. It's like you've single-threaded your team. Surely they don't do this all the time?

sdoering 5y ago
I would not do it all the time, but I imagine one benefit could be that the whole team is on one page, when it comes to a central complex part of the application's logic. Everybody is invested as everybody had (probably) their say and was part of the decision. Institutional knowledge is high across the whole team. This for the cost of single threading the team. It is a business call and might be a valuable and valid approach in some cases. I think it is a tool. A tool with a specific problem it solves. And if you use it all the time you are the worker that only has a hammer so that every problem looks like a nail (not you personally, but generally speaking). Being a data analyst I remember great sessions of pair and team analysis of a specific data problem. Some sucked and were unproductive but most were great if facilitated well.
- anentropic 5y ago
  I can certainly see that, as a tool to use occasionally for critical, complex bits of the system. Or even as a team-building exercise. I had the impression some are advocating it as a default way of working though, and that seems so alien to me

Jensson 5y ago

It massively impacts how comfortable work is, it is kind of like suggesting that everyone wear business formal attire at work. Some loves formal business attire, are comfortable with it and wonder why not everyone would love to wear it as well, it is so much cleaner and you get taken more seriously!

throwaway5486nv 5y ago

> Some developers really like to be left alone, and it's terrible for the business The problem is sharing credit. What is the incentive for a good developer to share credit with a bad developer especially when the don't like each other? If you do mob programming how would you know who is making contribution and who is slacking and how to rate the performance. > The amount of outright hostility I've faced professionally for suggesting mob programming was staggering. For a good reason. In my experience great developers don't mind helping out but they expect to be recognized which is fair.

TameAntelope 5y ago
If you're a developer who cares about taking credit for work on a team, the very next thing you should do is figure out how to stop being a developer who cares about taking credit for work on a team, and basically nothing else.
- phendrenad2 5y ago
  That doesn't work in the real world. In the real world, you'll encounter other people who try to take credit for a team effort. If your solution is to stop what you're doing and spend 100% of your time trying to figure out how to not care about it, you'll go homeless and starve before coming up with a realistic solution.
  - TameAntelope 5y ago
    It’s a problem that will make everything you do worse until you fix it, so yeah it’s worth solving first and foremost.
- throwaway5486nv 5y ago

phendrenad2 5y ago

> Some developers really like to be left alone, and it's terrible for the business This is a vague generalization, so it's hard to argue against. The truth is, to accomplish anything difficult, developers need to be left alone to work on it. Ideally for a particularly difficult problem, you put one developer on the project and just wait for results. Of course, businesses don't like that, so you're usually forced to put several developers on the project (which makes it take longer). As a developer, I think I speak for all of us when I say that we've experienced needing to focus intently on a difficult problem, but management keeps interrupting it by demanding progress reports and giving you the "gift" of more junior developers to "help you out".

mbrodersen 5y ago

All it takes is one bad developer to kill the productivity of a group of developers. Especially when the bad developer is arrogant, stubborn, wants to be in control, have bad communication skills, needs everything explained in detail, easily take offence at imaginary insults etc. etc.