4 ms·

Equipping it with weaponry would almost certainly be illegal, let alone the fact that it would be next to impossible to aim if you don't use very expensive weap

by xyzzyz 15y ago

Equipping it with weaponry would almost certainly be illegal, let alone the fact that it would be next to impossible to aim if you don't use very expensive weapons.

baddox 15y ago
Why illegal? Are there specific laws about mounting a firearm to an aircraft, or is the problem the automation of the weapon?
- rjknight 15y ago
  It seems that 'remote hunting' has been banned in various US states, although not all of them: http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/hunting/2011/02/north-dakota-mulls-banning-remote-hunting-internet http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/hunting/2011/02/north-da... Obviously it would be illegal in most of Europe and probably elsewhere too. This is something I've spent a fair few idle afternoons daydreaming about, and to be honest I'm quite worried about the future possibility of semi-autonomous weaponised drones. The average HN reader probably has the knowledge and access to resources necessary to build a basic manually-controlled drone. An iPhone or even an Arduino would provide the necessary computing power for semi-autonomous activity (and a whole bunch of useful sensors, including GPS, camera etc.) and it can't be long before someone builds some open source software to enable these things to fly basic missions (go to these coordinates, film for 30 minutes, return to base, avoid obvious obstacles whilst doing so). Mounting some kind of weapon on there is a fairly simple step. You could even print the weapon parts with a 3D printer... What really scares me is the arms race that will occur when law enforcement has to deal with this kind of thing.
  - alnayyir 15y ago
    >It seems that 'remote hunting' has been banned in various US states, although not all of them: http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/hunting/2011/02/north-da.. http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/hunting/2011/02/north-da.... There are exemptions to most of these laws, including ones concerning "hunting seasons" for farmers. I knew a guy with an orchard who had the coveted right in Ohio to shoot deer all year long. 80% of that man's familys' protein came from those hungry deer.
    - billswift 15y ago
      "Coveted" by flakes and suburbanites, maybe. If he's like most of the farmers and orchardists I know, he would probably much prefer to buy his meat and not have to worry about the deer eating his money crop. Farmers, and even just general gardeners, mostly hate deer, usually intensely.
      - Roboprog 15y ago
        I hear you about that. I have a small garden. We live in the Sierra foothills in north/central California. Usually, things are OK with the dog and people coming and going. But when we go on vacation, they tear stuff up badly. ... And I like to fly small R/C foamies, as well :-) No plans to build any flying defenses, though.
      - JshWright 15y ago
        Wouldn't it make sense that they would 'covet' permission to destroy the object of their hatred year round?
      - alnayyir 15y ago
        Deer have killed a lot of people and destroyed a lot of property. It's a coveted right for a reason. You must have a hell of a wireless keyboard, typing from up on that high horse of yours.
  - eftpotrm 15y ago
    If you're building this for purposes law enforcement will be concerned with, a flying bomb / guided makes far more sense than a gun platform IMHO. Build a few kamikaze drones, load them up with semtex and shrapnel, put them into a steep dive from altitude over your target... (I should stress I'm a very peaceful chap with no revolutionary or violent inclinations whatsoever!)
    - baddox 15y ago
      > (I should stress I'm a very peaceful chap with no revolutionary or violent inclinations whatsoever!) That's how it starts...
  - ilamont 15y ago
    ...to be honest I'm quite worried about the future possibility of semi-autonomous weaponised drones. "A future for drones: Automated killing" http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/national-security/a-future-for-drones-automated-killing/2011/09/15/gIQAVy9mgK_story.html?hpid=z1 http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/national-security/a-f...
- masonhensley 15y ago
  From what I understand, regular folk can't automate firearm actuation. Off he top of my head, you would at least need a Type 7 license with a class 2 SOT from our friends at the ATF to automate weapon fire on a drone. The FAA other alphabet soup agencies probably have other regulations regarding the manufacture and use of a flying killing machine. Some info on ATF licenses: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Firearms_License http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Firearms_License
  - alnayyir 15y ago
    ATF would definitely be a blocker on that one.
  - 0x12 15y ago
    For stuff like this your main worry is probably not the people that play by the rules, but the people that don't play by the rules.
- Nrsolis 15y ago
  Dude. Putting any kind of weaponry payload on a civilian aircraft (RC or otherwise) is highly, highly illegal in the US. I'm sure it's illegal practically everywhere else that's sane for the exact same reasons. It's not just "remote hunting" that's banned. It's the attachment of any weapon to an aerial or moving platform that's banned. A slingshot on a paper plane would qualify by a literal interpretation of the laws as written.
  - baddox 15y ago
    Do you have a source for this? It sounds quite likely, but any time law gets discussed I always try to find the relevant texts. I'm having trouble finding anything other than laws about carrying firearms on your person while on a commercial airliner.
    - Nrsolis 15y ago
      http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&rgn=div5&view=text&node=14:2.0.1.3.10&idno=14#14:2.0.1.3.10.1.4.8 http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&rgn... See section 91.15 for the part about "dropping of items." I'm still looking for the BATF regs on this. IANAL, so it's a bit of work, but I do know a few guys that do weapons systems (govt contractor) and my younger brother is a pilot.
    - Nrsolis 15y ago
      Found this which seems to confirm what I'm saying: http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13318 http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13318 As long as they aren't actually guns, it's legal. As soon as they become actual firearms, then you need permits/licenses/etc.
gamble 15y ago
Flying a UAV for commercial purposes is already illegal. However, mounting a gun on there would raise his chances of being prosecuted substantially.

by xyzzyz 15y ago

Equipping it with weaponry would almost certainly be illegal, let alone the fact that it would be next to impossible to aim if you don't use very expensive weapons.

baddox 15y ago

Why illegal? Are there specific laws about mounting a firearm to an aircraft, or is the problem the automation of the weapon?

rjknight 15y ago
It seems that 'remote hunting' has been banned in various US states, although not all of them: http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/hunting/2011/02/north-dakota-mulls-banning-remote-hunting-internet http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/hunting/2011/02/north-da... Obviously it would be illegal in most of Europe and probably elsewhere too. This is something I've spent a fair few idle afternoons daydreaming about, and to be honest I'm quite worried about the future possibility of semi-autonomous weaponised drones. The average HN reader probably has the knowledge and access to resources necessary to build a basic manually-controlled drone. An iPhone or even an Arduino would provide the necessary computing power for semi-autonomous activity (and a whole bunch of useful sensors, including GPS, camera etc.) and it can't be long before someone builds some open source software to enable these things to fly basic missions (go to these coordinates, film for 30 minutes, return to base, avoid obvious obstacles whilst doing so). Mounting some kind of weapon on there is a fairly simple step. You could even print the weapon parts with a 3D printer... What really scares me is the arms race that will occur when law enforcement has to deal with this kind of thing.
- alnayyir 15y ago
  >It seems that 'remote hunting' has been banned in various US states, although not all of them: http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/hunting/2011/02/north-da.. http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/hunting/2011/02/north-da.... There are exemptions to most of these laws, including ones concerning "hunting seasons" for farmers. I knew a guy with an orchard who had the coveted right in Ohio to shoot deer all year long. 80% of that man's familys' protein came from those hungry deer.
  - billswift 15y ago
    "Coveted" by flakes and suburbanites, maybe. If he's like most of the farmers and orchardists I know, he would probably much prefer to buy his meat and not have to worry about the deer eating his money crop. Farmers, and even just general gardeners, mostly hate deer, usually intensely.
    - Roboprog 15y ago
      I hear you about that. I have a small garden. We live in the Sierra foothills in north/central California. Usually, things are OK with the dog and people coming and going. But when we go on vacation, they tear stuff up badly. ... And I like to fly small R/C foamies, as well :-) No plans to build any flying defenses, though.
    - JshWright 15y ago
      Wouldn't it make sense that they would 'covet' permission to destroy the object of their hatred year round?
    - alnayyir 15y ago
      Deer have killed a lot of people and destroyed a lot of property. It's a coveted right for a reason. You must have a hell of a wireless keyboard, typing from up on that high horse of yours.
- eftpotrm 15y ago
  If you're building this for purposes law enforcement will be concerned with, a flying bomb / guided makes far more sense than a gun platform IMHO. Build a few kamikaze drones, load them up with semtex and shrapnel, put them into a steep dive from altitude over your target... (I should stress I'm a very peaceful chap with no revolutionary or violent inclinations whatsoever!)
  - baddox 15y ago
    > (I should stress I'm a very peaceful chap with no revolutionary or violent inclinations whatsoever!) That's how it starts...
- ilamont 15y ago
  ...to be honest I'm quite worried about the future possibility of semi-autonomous weaponised drones. "A future for drones: Automated killing" http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/national-security/a-future-for-drones-automated-killing/2011/09/15/gIQAVy9mgK_story.html?hpid=z1 http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/national-security/a-f...
masonhensley 15y ago
From what I understand, regular folk can't automate firearm actuation. Off he top of my head, you would at least need a Type 7 license with a class 2 SOT from our friends at the ATF to automate weapon fire on a drone. The FAA other alphabet soup agencies probably have other regulations regarding the manufacture and use of a flying killing machine. Some info on ATF licenses: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Firearms_License http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Firearms_License
- alnayyir 15y ago
  ATF would definitely be a blocker on that one.
- 0x12 15y ago
  For stuff like this your main worry is probably not the people that play by the rules, but the people that don't play by the rules.
Nrsolis 15y ago
Dude. Putting any kind of weaponry payload on a civilian aircraft (RC or otherwise) is highly, highly illegal in the US. I'm sure it's illegal practically everywhere else that's sane for the exact same reasons. It's not just "remote hunting" that's banned. It's the attachment of any weapon to an aerial or moving platform that's banned. A slingshot on a paper plane would qualify by a literal interpretation of the laws as written.
- baddox 15y ago
  Do you have a source for this? It sounds quite likely, but any time law gets discussed I always try to find the relevant texts. I'm having trouble finding anything other than laws about carrying firearms on your person while on a commercial airliner.
  - Nrsolis 15y ago
    http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&rgn=div5&view=text&node=14:2.0.1.3.10&idno=14#14:2.0.1.3.10.1.4.8 http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&rgn... See section 91.15 for the part about "dropping of items." I'm still looking for the BATF regs on this. IANAL, so it's a bit of work, but I do know a few guys that do weapons systems (govt contractor) and my younger brother is a pilot.
  - Nrsolis 15y ago
    Found this which seems to confirm what I'm saying: http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13318 http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13318 As long as they aren't actually guns, it's legal. As soon as they become actual firearms, then you need permits/licenses/etc.

gamble 15y ago

Flying a UAV for commercial purposes is already illegal. However, mounting a gun on there would raise his chances of being prosecuted substantially.