11 ms·

For real. I bought my first house a few years ago. If I hadn't, I'd be fucked. My friends who are double income but not tech are trying to buy a home now. S

by diob 5y ago

For real. I bought my first house a few years ago. If I hadn't, I'd be fucked. My friends who are double income but not tech are trying to buy a home now. Same experience as you. Cash offers always arrive and beat them. I don't know how this ends but it's not going to be tenable for many folks to "live" in the USA as it stands.

tristor 5y ago
It's also creating a situation where the actual quality/value of properties for price is completely out of whack. There are large swaths of the country where low-grade cookie cutter houses in the suburbs that are legitimately worth maybe $350k at the current inflation rate are asking for $850k+ and generally selling $100k+ over ask. I have a $1.25M budget for a house and I can't find anything that's not a trash heap I can afford, and I'm not even looking in a coastal area, this isn't the legendary market in California, this is in the middle of the US.
- asdff 5y ago
  It astounds me that more homes weren't wiped out from the Northridge earthquake. A lot of the housing stock in California in particular is like rotting toothpicks on eroding sand for a foundation. At least the homes generally lack basements so they will only fall a few feet off the posts. This particular reddit users is a contractor that posts their typical finds from structural inspections. People are paying between 800k-5m for the homes featured, generally: https://old.reddit.com/user/DMAS1638/submitted/ https://old.reddit.com/user/DMAS1638/submitted/ Where you see winters homes are generally even in worse shape. Basements are leaking and eroding your foundation. Roofs are leaking and rotting your studs. Poor insulation is costing you a lot more money than in California. Chances are your water mains and sewer situation, both from your parcel as well as the municipal lines on the street, are all approaching end of life. Right as climate change brings heavier rains and flooding that stresses infrastructure where there isn't money as it is to maintain it even for old climate projections.
  - tristor 5y ago
    It's a real concern of mine and it's driving me towards considering building a custom home, at this point it's almost cheaper to do, especially since much of the work I can do myself and already have the necessary skills and tools. It's really and truly absurd what people are being expected to pay in comparison to what they get... I feel like most of the houses in the US are actually unsafe to live in because they don't care in construction about efficiency, indoor air quality, or mitigating common environmental concerns in those areas like radon gas. The minimal building codes in the US are truly obscene, and yet these slapdash houses are now priced for 3-4x what they are actually "worth" given the inflation rate. I have a 5 page document of bullet points making simple asks/requirements for a new home build, and most of them are focused on safety, reliability, and efficiency, and none of them would be done by default by any builder in the US, most are required by law in Europe. It's kind of nuts.
    - tfvlrue 5y ago
      Would you be willing to share some of these requirements? I share your views on construction in the US, so I'm curious about some specific examples.
      - tristor 5y ago
        Sure, this is non-exhaustive of course, but here's a few of the items on the list I personally think are very important. * Foundation footings set to bedrock and insulated above the freeze line * Exterior walls framed in 2x6 or 2x8 studs w/ a preference for non-bridging stud products like t-studs * Exterior continuous insulation * Kitchen range hood needs to be externally ventilated with proper make-up air system * Using an ERV (Energy Recovery Ventilator) with filtered intakes for doing fresh air distribution within the home * No use of plastic flooring products (e.g. linoleum, vinyl, carpet, LVP, LVT, et al) which off-gas and spread plasticizers within the indoor envelope * Consider use of alternative methods of framing vs stick framing, like using ICF (Insulated Concrete Forms) * Natural gas on-demand hot water heaters w/ electric instant hot systems close to tap for showers * Roof trusses and decking properly constructed to account for the weight of solar panels on the south-facing slope * Split electrical paneling for high voltage (230V+) and low voltage (120V) circuits * Post-meter paneling for breaking out to circuit panels w/ a space for setting up a transfer switch to support future grid-tied solar with battery backup * All electric appliances w/ the exception of on-demand water heater and sealed gas fireplace, this provides a pathway for higher energy efficiency / lower carbon emissions by using solar * All cabinet work should be hung using french cleats for durability * Exterior door frames should be installed fully to the studs (e.g. use 3-4" long screws) * Interior doors should be solid core * All interior walls should contain sound-rated insulation to reduce noise pollution and improve climate zoning * All interior walls should be boarded with sound-sealant and noise rated drywall-type products * Subfloors should be insulated and there should be sound/thermal insulation underlayment below the flooring * The final construction prior to drywall should be able to achieve a blower door test score of ACH50 1.5 or lower with the make-up air and flue vents closed. Not all of these things would be required by code currently in Europe, but they're all good ideas for durability, efficiency, or safety. This is obviously with the intent to use rooftop solar power as well. If I do build a custom house, it'll be built to the Passivhaus standard.
- Osiris 5y ago
  I'm in Colorado and in the Denver area, $600k will get you plenty of house.
  - tristor 5y ago
    My concern isn't square footage, it's safety, efficiency, and quality. Please point me to a place in the Denver metro where a properly built high-efficiency house (let's say blower door ACH50 1.5 or lower) can be purchased for $600k. I'll buy today.
    - KerrAvon 5y ago
      You may want to consider realigning your expectations with reality. The reality is that if you have location flexibility, you can certainly find a nice house at a nice price in the USA. Your expectation that you can find a nice house with bleeding edge environmental efficiency is unrealistic. Maybe it shouldn't be, but that's life. edited to add: the people who are really screwed are the people who need to work in a given location where housing prices are absurdly high and the housing stock is truly garbage. Silicon Valley and such.
      - Spivak 5y ago
        I think there's a huge disconnect between you and the parent's definition of "nice house." Because it's kinda nuts that for $600k you can't buy small exceptionally-constructed house. In this market there is no way to find houses where you pay more to get build quality instead of bigger.
        tristor 5y ago
        Yes, you understood my point exactly. I would happily pay $850k for a 1800sqft house that is constructed properly with efficiency in mind. I don't want to pay $850k for a trash quality 3500sqft McMansion, but that's what's on offer at that price.
      - tristor 5y ago
- diob 5y ago
  That is a massive budget, at least where I live (Southwest). You can get a nice place here, as long as you spend > 700k. Below that it definitely is trash heaps.
jimt1234 5y ago
I'm really curious about opinions regarding "how this ends..." Seems to me that, if current trends continue, home ownership will basically become extinct; everyone will become renters. Home ownership will take the same path as music over the last 20 years, where we used to "own" music (CDs), now we just "rent" music through streaming services like Spotify. But that's just my 2-cents. I'm curious about others' thoughts.
- allturtles 5y ago
  I don't see the analogy. I still own lots of music and don't rent it at all (unless you count listening to the radio). It hasn't gotten any more expensive to own music, either, digital tracks and CDs are still readily available and inexpensive.
  - HWR_14 5y ago
    The analogy imply that things are really good! The price of renting is so low, that even holding the price of purchasing constant people don't think it's enough savings to bother purchasing. People get to experience a wide variety of things, because the commitment is low. Multiple competing services aim to make consuming music (or housing) very easy. The real analogy is furniture rentals for low income people. Paying 10x what something is worth for low quality alternatives and an inability to escape a cycle of being stuck renting when people want to buy.
  - disqard 5y ago
    I'm like you with music, but I feel obliged to point out that folks like us are outliers today. So the GP is correct in the sense that the majority of things are moving from ownership -> renting (though there'll always exist some die-hard holdouts).
    - allturtles 5y ago
      Maybe, but economically music rental is nothing like housing rental. No one is renting music because they are unable to buy it or can't afford to.
antihero 5y ago
It ends with all homes being controlled and rents skyrocketing because they can make it as artificially scarce as they like and then god knows, squatting?
- mellavora 5y ago
  Sounds like Barcelona today.
petra 5y ago
It's not just in the USA. It's a global phenomena. So on the one hand you've unaffordable homes/apartments, and on the other automation coming at full speed. So much uncertainty and insecurity. I'm sure civil unrest is coming.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

by diob 5y ago

tristor 5y ago

It's also creating a situation where the actual quality/value of properties for price is completely out of whack. There are large swaths of the country where low-grade cookie cutter houses in the suburbs that are legitimately worth maybe $350k at the current inflation rate are asking for $850k+ and generally selling $100k+ over ask. I have a $1.25M budget for a house and I can't find anything that's not a trash heap I can afford, and I'm not even looking in a coastal area, this isn't the legendary market in California, this is in the middle of the US.

asdff 5y ago
It astounds me that more homes weren't wiped out from the Northridge earthquake. A lot of the housing stock in California in particular is like rotting toothpicks on eroding sand for a foundation. At least the homes generally lack basements so they will only fall a few feet off the posts. This particular reddit users is a contractor that posts their typical finds from structural inspections. People are paying between 800k-5m for the homes featured, generally: https://old.reddit.com/user/DMAS1638/submitted/ https://old.reddit.com/user/DMAS1638/submitted/ Where you see winters homes are generally even in worse shape. Basements are leaking and eroding your foundation. Roofs are leaking and rotting your studs. Poor insulation is costing you a lot more money than in California. Chances are your water mains and sewer situation, both from your parcel as well as the municipal lines on the street, are all approaching end of life. Right as climate change brings heavier rains and flooding that stresses infrastructure where there isn't money as it is to maintain it even for old climate projections.
- tristor 5y ago
  It's a real concern of mine and it's driving me towards considering building a custom home, at this point it's almost cheaper to do, especially since much of the work I can do myself and already have the necessary skills and tools. It's really and truly absurd what people are being expected to pay in comparison to what they get... I feel like most of the houses in the US are actually unsafe to live in because they don't care in construction about efficiency, indoor air quality, or mitigating common environmental concerns in those areas like radon gas. The minimal building codes in the US are truly obscene, and yet these slapdash houses are now priced for 3-4x what they are actually "worth" given the inflation rate. I have a 5 page document of bullet points making simple asks/requirements for a new home build, and most of them are focused on safety, reliability, and efficiency, and none of them would be done by default by any builder in the US, most are required by law in Europe. It's kind of nuts.
  - tfvlrue 5y ago
    Would you be willing to share some of these requirements? I share your views on construction in the US, so I'm curious about some specific examples.
    - tristor 5y ago
      Sure, this is non-exhaustive of course, but here's a few of the items on the list I personally think are very important. * Foundation footings set to bedrock and insulated above the freeze line * Exterior walls framed in 2x6 or 2x8 studs w/ a preference for non-bridging stud products like t-studs * Exterior continuous insulation * Kitchen range hood needs to be externally ventilated with proper make-up air system * Using an ERV (Energy Recovery Ventilator) with filtered intakes for doing fresh air distribution within the home * No use of plastic flooring products (e.g. linoleum, vinyl, carpet, LVP, LVT, et al) which off-gas and spread plasticizers within the indoor envelope * Consider use of alternative methods of framing vs stick framing, like using ICF (Insulated Concrete Forms) * Natural gas on-demand hot water heaters w/ electric instant hot systems close to tap for showers * Roof trusses and decking properly constructed to account for the weight of solar panels on the south-facing slope * Split electrical paneling for high voltage (230V+) and low voltage (120V) circuits * Post-meter paneling for breaking out to circuit panels w/ a space for setting up a transfer switch to support future grid-tied solar with battery backup * All electric appliances w/ the exception of on-demand water heater and sealed gas fireplace, this provides a pathway for higher energy efficiency / lower carbon emissions by using solar * All cabinet work should be hung using french cleats for durability * Exterior door frames should be installed fully to the studs (e.g. use 3-4" long screws) * Interior doors should be solid core * All interior walls should contain sound-rated insulation to reduce noise pollution and improve climate zoning * All interior walls should be boarded with sound-sealant and noise rated drywall-type products * Subfloors should be insulated and there should be sound/thermal insulation underlayment below the flooring * The final construction prior to drywall should be able to achieve a blower door test score of ACH50 1.5 or lower with the make-up air and flue vents closed. Not all of these things would be required by code currently in Europe, but they're all good ideas for durability, efficiency, or safety. This is obviously with the intent to use rooftop solar power as well. If I do build a custom house, it'll be built to the Passivhaus standard.
Osiris 5y ago
I'm in Colorado and in the Denver area, $600k will get you plenty of house.
- tristor 5y ago
  My concern isn't square footage, it's safety, efficiency, and quality. Please point me to a place in the Denver metro where a properly built high-efficiency house (let's say blower door ACH50 1.5 or lower) can be purchased for $600k. I'll buy today.
  - KerrAvon 5y ago
    You may want to consider realigning your expectations with reality. The reality is that if you have location flexibility, you can certainly find a nice house at a nice price in the USA. Your expectation that you can find a nice house with bleeding edge environmental efficiency is unrealistic. Maybe it shouldn't be, but that's life. edited to add: the people who are really screwed are the people who need to work in a given location where housing prices are absurdly high and the housing stock is truly garbage. Silicon Valley and such.
    - Spivak 5y ago
      I think there's a huge disconnect between you and the parent's definition of "nice house." Because it's kinda nuts that for $600k you can't buy small exceptionally-constructed house. In this market there is no way to find houses where you pay more to get build quality instead of bigger.
      - tristor 5y ago
        Yes, you understood my point exactly. I would happily pay $850k for a 1800sqft house that is constructed properly with efficiency in mind. I don't want to pay $850k for a trash quality 3500sqft McMansion, but that's what's on offer at that price.
    - tristor 5y ago
diob 5y ago
That is a massive budget, at least where I live (Southwest). You can get a nice place here, as long as you spend > 700k. Below that it definitely is trash heaps.

jimt1234 5y ago

I'm really curious about opinions regarding "how this ends..." Seems to me that, if current trends continue, home ownership will basically become extinct; everyone will become renters. Home ownership will take the same path as music over the last 20 years, where we used to "own" music (CDs), now we just "rent" music through streaming services like Spotify. But that's just my 2-cents. I'm curious about others' thoughts.

allturtles 5y ago
I don't see the analogy. I still own lots of music and don't rent it at all (unless you count listening to the radio). It hasn't gotten any more expensive to own music, either, digital tracks and CDs are still readily available and inexpensive.
- HWR_14 5y ago
  The analogy imply that things are really good! The price of renting is so low, that even holding the price of purchasing constant people don't think it's enough savings to bother purchasing. People get to experience a wide variety of things, because the commitment is low. Multiple competing services aim to make consuming music (or housing) very easy. The real analogy is furniture rentals for low income people. Paying 10x what something is worth for low quality alternatives and an inability to escape a cycle of being stuck renting when people want to buy.
- disqard 5y ago
  I'm like you with music, but I feel obliged to point out that folks like us are outliers today. So the GP is correct in the sense that the majority of things are moving from ownership -> renting (though there'll always exist some die-hard holdouts).
  - allturtles 5y ago
    Maybe, but economically music rental is nothing like housing rental. No one is renting music because they are unable to buy it or can't afford to.

antihero 5y ago

It ends with all homes being controlled and rents skyrocketing because they can make it as artificially scarce as they like and then god knows, squatting?

mellavora 5y ago
Sounds like Barcelona today.

petra 5y ago

It's not just in the USA. It's a global phenomena. So on the one hand you've unaffordable homes/apartments, and on the other automation coming at full speed. So much uncertainty and insecurity. I'm sure civil unrest is coming.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]