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I'm surprised by how often the "junk food is cheaper than healthy food" meme gets repeated. It seems so obviously false, I can't understand why people believe

I'm surprised by how often the "junk food is cheaper than healthy food" meme gets repeated. It seems so obviously false, I can't understand why people believe it when they hear it, and I really struggle to see how it can survive after people give even a back-of-the-envelope calculation in response. What am I missing? Is it that people think "healthy" means organic, out-of-season produce? Are they assuming the cost of a whole bottle of ketchup for each hamburger? Is there some experience people are having that makes this "feel" true? I'd appreciate hearing from someone who believed it up until now -- what was it about this idea that resonated with you?

patio11 15y ago
Food has become a statement of moral worth for at least some people. For them, there are morally righteous ways to eat, and other options are sinful. (Swap food for sex if this distinction is a bugbear to wrap your head around.) If you believe that fast food is essentially sinful but also that poor people are essentially good, then there must be a reason why poor people can't eat like righteous people like yourself eat. Hence things like the economic argument.
chc 15y ago
Here's how I think it works. Things that cost about $5: - One avocado - One loaf of whole grain bread - One package of low-cal tortillas - A bag of frozen broccoli - Five items off the dollar menu One of these things by itself will feed your family, the others won't.
- lotharbot 15y ago
  My question on the first four is, where the heck are you shopping? Those are terrible prices. Are those really representative of what you see on a regular basis? Avocados supposedly hit "record" prices of $2.50 each this summer [0]. I get 3 loaves of whole grain bread for $5 at my local grocer. Frozen broccoli is 3-4 pounds for $5 [1]. Low cal tortillas can get up near $5, I guess, if you get the fancy ones in a 10 or 12 pack. Here are a few other things you can get for $5 (all taken from my local grocery ad [2]): - 20 pounds of potatoes - 3.5 pounds of frozen chicken breasts - 3 pounds of ham - 5+ pounds of produce: tomatoes, carrots, pineapples, squash, etc. - 15 cans of store brand condensed soup It seems to me like, if you're looking to feed the family, your $5 goes a lot more on this list than it does on the dollar menu. A pound of ham, a pound of squash and tomatoes, and a 10 pound bag of potatoes seems like a lot more food than two burgers, two fries, and a tiny salad. It seems to me like, if you can't do better than the dollar menu for feeding your family, you must suck at shopping [3]. Do you think "sucking at shopping" is really what fuels this meme? [0] http://www.thepacker.com/fruit-vegetable-news/Avocado-demand-strong-as-Mexican-season-winds-down-123635079.html http://www.thepacker.com/fruit-vegetable-news/Avocado-demand... [1] http://www.ers.usda.gov/Data/FruitVegetableCosts/ http://www.ers.usda.gov/Data/FruitVegetableCosts/ has some fantastic data [2] http://www.benewsjournal.com/Kent%27s%20Ads/Kent%27sBRIGHAM09-21.pdf http://www.benewsjournal.com/Kent%27s%20Ads/Kent%27sBRIGHAM0... -- as for cost of living, prices out here are higher than they were in Seattle. Housing is cheap, but groceries are not. [3] one of my friends who was on government assistance really did suck at shopping. I once went with him and convinced him to replace 10 pounds of meat (of the 20 in his cart) with a big bag of potatoes, as well as bulk carrots and such. At the end of the month, he was delighted that he still had food and had a little money left over.
  - chc 15y ago
    Those were off the top of my head from my last shopping trip at Albertsons. I'm sure I was wrong about the avocados — the $5 is for a pack of three avocados (though I do think that people would not value even five avocados the same way they would five hamburgers). I'm going again tonight, so I will check if I misremembered the other prices as well, but they don't sound wrong.
  - tptacek 15y ago
    It is absolutely not reasonable to assume you can buy "chicken breast" for $1.40/lb. The coupon sale price for frozen Dominicks (Safeway) chicken breasts in Chicago is $4/lb. A fresh pack of chicken breast --- again, the grocery store crap --- will easily set you back $7 (which is approximately what Empire runs /lb at Trader Joe's as well). I don't have a strong opinion about whether junk food is "truly" cheaper than "healthy" food (I cook every night and think it's generally a good idea for every family to get into that habit). I think it's a kind of a moot point, because what many poor families really lack is a history of having time in their schedules to cook. Cooking is a skill built through repetition and serving home cooked meals is a habit that is hard to establish. What does bug me though is that every time this topic comes up, some nerd hits Google and finds either (a) some ludicrously unrepresentative price sample ("you pay $6/lb for chicken? i can get new york strip for $5.50!") or (b) some combination of beans and millet that will feed them just fine for a month on $3. It is not enough, to win this argument, for the math to come out slightly in favor of home cooking. Home cooking needs to win on all three axes: (i) price: home cooking has to be invariably comparable in price to McDonalds to win, (ii) convenience: it's got to be straightforward to cook and to serve, bearing in mind that one of the hallmarks of low-income working families is shift work, and (iii) palatability: this doesn't mean "it has to taste as good as junk food" (although realistically that is a factor); it means that you have to find one dish that you can serve four people and have them all come away satisfied. None of those are easy to accomplish. Erin & I work hard to achieve any two. All three?
    - timsally 15y ago
      A brief anecdote. McKinnon's meat market in Cambridge sells boneless chicken breasts for $2/lb and split chicken breasts for $1/lb. I'm not an expert and can't speak to the quality, but it's really popular among residents here. I have no idea whether this is an "unrepresentative price sample", but it's a meat market in Boston a few blocks away from the red line. It's not exactly an obscure shop. I've never been there, but I'm thinking about checking it out this week as people keep telling me to go.

patio11 15y ago

Food has become a statement of moral worth for at least some people. For them, there are morally righteous ways to eat, and other options are sinful. (Swap food for sex if this distinction is a bugbear to wrap your head around.) If you believe that fast food is essentially sinful but also that poor people are essentially good, then there must be a reason why poor people can't eat like righteous people like yourself eat. Hence things like the economic argument.

chc 15y ago

Here's how I think it works. Things that cost about $5: - One avocado - One loaf of whole grain bread - One package of low-cal tortillas - A bag of frozen broccoli - Five items off the dollar menu One of these things by itself will feed your family, the others won't.

lotharbot 15y ago
My question on the first four is, where the heck are you shopping? Those are terrible prices. Are those really representative of what you see on a regular basis? Avocados supposedly hit "record" prices of $2.50 each this summer [0]. I get 3 loaves of whole grain bread for $5 at my local grocer. Frozen broccoli is 3-4 pounds for $5 [1]. Low cal tortillas can get up near $5, I guess, if you get the fancy ones in a 10 or 12 pack. Here are a few other things you can get for $5 (all taken from my local grocery ad [2]): - 20 pounds of potatoes - 3.5 pounds of frozen chicken breasts - 3 pounds of ham - 5+ pounds of produce: tomatoes, carrots, pineapples, squash, etc. - 15 cans of store brand condensed soup It seems to me like, if you're looking to feed the family, your $5 goes a lot more on this list than it does on the dollar menu. A pound of ham, a pound of squash and tomatoes, and a 10 pound bag of potatoes seems like a lot more food than two burgers, two fries, and a tiny salad. It seems to me like, if you can't do better than the dollar menu for feeding your family, you must suck at shopping [3]. Do you think "sucking at shopping" is really what fuels this meme? [0] http://www.thepacker.com/fruit-vegetable-news/Avocado-demand-strong-as-Mexican-season-winds-down-123635079.html http://www.thepacker.com/fruit-vegetable-news/Avocado-demand... [1] http://www.ers.usda.gov/Data/FruitVegetableCosts/ http://www.ers.usda.gov/Data/FruitVegetableCosts/ has some fantastic data [2] http://www.benewsjournal.com/Kent%27s%20Ads/Kent%27sBRIGHAM09-21.pdf http://www.benewsjournal.com/Kent%27s%20Ads/Kent%27sBRIGHAM0... -- as for cost of living, prices out here are higher than they were in Seattle. Housing is cheap, but groceries are not. [3] one of my friends who was on government assistance really did suck at shopping. I once went with him and convinced him to replace 10 pounds of meat (of the 20 in his cart) with a big bag of potatoes, as well as bulk carrots and such. At the end of the month, he was delighted that he still had food and had a little money left over.
- chc 15y ago
  Those were off the top of my head from my last shopping trip at Albertsons. I'm sure I was wrong about the avocados — the $5 is for a pack of three avocados (though I do think that people would not value even five avocados the same way they would five hamburgers). I'm going again tonight, so I will check if I misremembered the other prices as well, but they don't sound wrong.
- tptacek 15y ago
  It is absolutely not reasonable to assume you can buy "chicken breast" for $1.40/lb. The coupon sale price for frozen Dominicks (Safeway) chicken breasts in Chicago is $4/lb. A fresh pack of chicken breast --- again, the grocery store crap --- will easily set you back $7 (which is approximately what Empire runs /lb at Trader Joe's as well). I don't have a strong opinion about whether junk food is "truly" cheaper than "healthy" food (I cook every night and think it's generally a good idea for every family to get into that habit). I think it's a kind of a moot point, because what many poor families really lack is a history of having time in their schedules to cook. Cooking is a skill built through repetition and serving home cooked meals is a habit that is hard to establish. What does bug me though is that every time this topic comes up, some nerd hits Google and finds either (a) some ludicrously unrepresentative price sample ("you pay $6/lb for chicken? i can get new york strip for $5.50!") or (b) some combination of beans and millet that will feed them just fine for a month on $3. It is not enough, to win this argument, for the math to come out slightly in favor of home cooking. Home cooking needs to win on all three axes: (i) price: home cooking has to be invariably comparable in price to McDonalds to win, (ii) convenience: it's got to be straightforward to cook and to serve, bearing in mind that one of the hallmarks of low-income working families is shift work, and (iii) palatability: this doesn't mean "it has to taste as good as junk food" (although realistically that is a factor); it means that you have to find one dish that you can serve four people and have them all come away satisfied. None of those are easy to accomplish. Erin & I work hard to achieve any two. All three?
  - timsally 15y ago
    A brief anecdote. McKinnon's meat market in Cambridge sells boneless chicken breasts for $2/lb and split chicken breasts for $1/lb. I'm not an expert and can't speak to the quality, but it's really popular among residents here. I have no idea whether this is an "unrepresentative price sample", but it's a meat market in Boston a few blocks away from the red line. It's not exactly an obscure shop. I've never been there, but I'm thinking about checking it out this week as people keep telling me to go.