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The developer's post assumes that those other clones won't be removed. It also assumes that every review process is exactly the same. We only know one side of t

The developer's post assumes that those other clones won't be removed. It also assumes that every review process is exactly the same. We only know one side of the story here and it's full of assumptions and conjecture.

Apocryphon 5y ago
That highlights another problem with the process- the complete lack of transparency. Apple could be more forthcoming about the review process, yet they aren’t.
- dkonofalski 5y ago
  Do they need to be? They told the developer why it wasn't allowed - it violates the Copycat clause of the ToS. At that point, the developer is just attempting to make minimal changes to differentiate it enough to bypass that restriction and then resubmitting over and over. I don't think anyone is under the illusion that this isn't a Wordle copycat. Even the author knows it.
  - Apocryphon 5y ago
    It doesn't allow the developer any actionable feedback. They could have included screenshots highlighting the exact ways this app is a copycat. What if the developer changed the UX differently- would it then no longer be a copycat? It also downplays the which the app isn't a copycat, namely that it uses a different language. As it stands, just calling something a copycat is not substantiative, you actually need to provide justification. See Apple Inc. v. Samsung Electronics Co.
    - dkonofalski 5y ago
      What actionable feedback could there be? The author is copying Wordle. The very nature of the project is to copy a copyrighted application/website.
      - Apocryphon 5y ago
        Is the inherent game mechanic being the same the problem, or could that be alleviated if the screens looked more distinct? And it is in a different language, after all. Are Wordle's mechanics even copyrighted?
        dkonofalski 5y ago
        Yes. Apparently, it was one of the first things the NY Times did when they purchased it. Edit: It was trademarked only. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30378491 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30378491
        Apocryphon 5y ago
        In other languages as well? And then why isn't the Times DMCA'ing all of the more straightforward English Wordle clones out there right now? Based on the screenshots, it also looks like this whole app rejection process took place prior to the NYT purchase.
        dkonofalski 5y ago
        I would imagine that it's unique to Wordle right now because of recency. There were probably a deluge of Wordle-clones that were submitted to the App Store recently to capitalize and take advantage of both the buzz and the name.
        Anthony-G 5y ago
        > Are Wordle's mechanics even copyrighted? My understanding of intellectual property is that not only are the game mechanics not copyrighted, they aren’t even copyrightable. The code and assets that are used to implement the game mechanics are automatically protected by copyright but not the gameplay itself. Bringing copyright into this discussion is an irrelevant distraction. Edit: as both Apple and the NY Times are based in the US, I thought I’d double-check what the US legal situation is (in case American rules differ from the Berne convention). It turns out there’s a whole Wikipedia article dedicated to this subject¹: > There is a long established Copyright principle called the idea–expression distinction, where Copyright is meant to protect a creator’s unique expression, without giving anyone a monopoly on a broader idea. The US Copyright Office specifically states that “Copyright does not protect the idea for a game, its name or title, or the method or methods for playing it. Nor does copyright protect any idea, system, method, device, or trademark material involved in developing, merchandising, or playing a game.” Also: A Stack Exchange answer² provided a reference for the quotation cited in the Wikipedia article. The original US Copyright Office URL is now a 404 but here’s the archived version of their article: https://web.archive.org/web/20160403041628/http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl108.html https://web.archive.org/web/20160403041628/http://www.copyri... ¹ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectual_property_protection_of_video_games https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectual_property_protecti... ² https://law.stackexchange.com/a/4653 https://law.stackexchange.com/a/4653
jonatanheyman 5y ago
As the writer of the post, I would love to hear Apple's side of the story. The reason I didn't include more quotes from Apple was that they never cited anything other than "resembles Wordle" and "leverages Wordle" in their replies. But clearly, given that they don't apply these rules when it comes to other apps (such as Scrabble, Minesweeper, Tetris, etc.), there is something else going on.
- dkonofalski 5y ago
  With respect, you don't know that they aren't attempting to take action on those other apps. Wordle may be a recent copyright issue since NYT has purchased the original. It seems like their rules do apply to these other apps but they just haven't gotten the attention that Wordle has so there's less bias towards those.
  - curt15 5y ago
    WHat does "attempting to take action on those other apps" mean? Apple still lists them on the app store for download.
  - jonatanheyman 5y ago
    Thankfully (IMO), you can't patent game ideas. There's no legal action NYT can take (and expect to win) to shut down any games that build on the same game rules. However, even if you disagree with me, and think that there should be no app implementing Wordle-style gameplay on App Store. What's your opinion on Minesweeper, Tetris, or Tic-tac-toe? Should no iOS versions of those games exist? Remember that Apple only ever refers to the original Wordle website in their rejections and never even acknowledges the existence of Wordle clones. What about Scrabble? If they were applying their rules consistently they would surely kick out Words With Friends, but what about Wordfeud? Should they kick out Wordfeud because Scrabble implementations already existed on the web?
raydev 5y ago
A healthy and well-founded assumption given their track record of mishandling copycats in other app categories that are far more scammy and actively steal people's money.

Apocryphon 5y ago

That highlights another problem with the process- the complete lack of transparency. Apple could be more forthcoming about the review process, yet they aren’t.

dkonofalski 5y ago
Do they need to be? They told the developer why it wasn't allowed - it violates the Copycat clause of the ToS. At that point, the developer is just attempting to make minimal changes to differentiate it enough to bypass that restriction and then resubmitting over and over. I don't think anyone is under the illusion that this isn't a Wordle copycat. Even the author knows it.
- Apocryphon 5y ago
  It doesn't allow the developer any actionable feedback. They could have included screenshots highlighting the exact ways this app is a copycat. What if the developer changed the UX differently- would it then no longer be a copycat? It also downplays the which the app isn't a copycat, namely that it uses a different language. As it stands, just calling something a copycat is not substantiative, you actually need to provide justification. See Apple Inc. v. Samsung Electronics Co.
  - dkonofalski 5y ago
    What actionable feedback could there be? The author is copying Wordle. The very nature of the project is to copy a copyrighted application/website.
    - Apocryphon 5y ago
      Is the inherent game mechanic being the same the problem, or could that be alleviated if the screens looked more distinct? And it is in a different language, after all. Are Wordle's mechanics even copyrighted?
      - dkonofalski 5y ago
        Yes. Apparently, it was one of the first things the NY Times did when they purchased it. Edit: It was trademarked only. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30378491 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30378491
        Apocryphon 5y ago
        In other languages as well? And then why isn't the Times DMCA'ing all of the more straightforward English Wordle clones out there right now? Based on the screenshots, it also looks like this whole app rejection process took place prior to the NYT purchase.
        dkonofalski 5y ago
        I would imagine that it's unique to Wordle right now because of recency. There were probably a deluge of Wordle-clones that were submitted to the App Store recently to capitalize and take advantage of both the buzz and the name.
      - Anthony-G 5y ago
        > Are Wordle's mechanics even copyrighted? My understanding of intellectual property is that not only are the game mechanics not copyrighted, they aren’t even copyrightable. The code and assets that are used to implement the game mechanics are automatically protected by copyright but not the gameplay itself. Bringing copyright into this discussion is an irrelevant distraction. Edit: as both Apple and the NY Times are based in the US, I thought I’d double-check what the US legal situation is (in case American rules differ from the Berne convention). It turns out there’s a whole Wikipedia article dedicated to this subject¹: > There is a long established Copyright principle called the idea–expression distinction, where Copyright is meant to protect a creator’s unique expression, without giving anyone a monopoly on a broader idea. The US Copyright Office specifically states that “Copyright does not protect the idea for a game, its name or title, or the method or methods for playing it. Nor does copyright protect any idea, system, method, device, or trademark material involved in developing, merchandising, or playing a game.” Also: A Stack Exchange answer² provided a reference for the quotation cited in the Wikipedia article. The original US Copyright Office URL is now a 404 but here’s the archived version of their article: https://web.archive.org/web/20160403041628/http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl108.html https://web.archive.org/web/20160403041628/http://www.copyri... ¹ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectual_property_protection_of_video_games https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectual_property_protecti... ² https://law.stackexchange.com/a/4653 https://law.stackexchange.com/a/4653

jonatanheyman 5y ago

As the writer of the post, I would love to hear Apple's side of the story. The reason I didn't include more quotes from Apple was that they never cited anything other than "resembles Wordle" and "leverages Wordle" in their replies. But clearly, given that they don't apply these rules when it comes to other apps (such as Scrabble, Minesweeper, Tetris, etc.), there is something else going on.

dkonofalski 5y ago
With respect, you don't know that they aren't attempting to take action on those other apps. Wordle may be a recent copyright issue since NYT has purchased the original. It seems like their rules do apply to these other apps but they just haven't gotten the attention that Wordle has so there's less bias towards those.
- curt15 5y ago
  WHat does "attempting to take action on those other apps" mean? Apple still lists them on the app store for download.
- jonatanheyman 5y ago
  Thankfully (IMO), you can't patent game ideas. There's no legal action NYT can take (and expect to win) to shut down any games that build on the same game rules. However, even if you disagree with me, and think that there should be no app implementing Wordle-style gameplay on App Store. What's your opinion on Minesweeper, Tetris, or Tic-tac-toe? Should no iOS versions of those games exist? Remember that Apple only ever refers to the original Wordle website in their rejections and never even acknowledges the existence of Wordle clones. What about Scrabble? If they were applying their rules consistently they would surely kick out Words With Friends, but what about Wordfeud? Should they kick out Wordfeud because Scrabble implementations already existed on the web?

raydev 5y ago

A healthy and well-founded assumption given their track record of mishandling copycats in other app categories that are far more scammy and actively steal people's money.