5 ms·

My exact thought. I'd even pay more for one knowing it was made in the US. This just doesn't seem like the type of job requiring off-shore manufacturing.

huhtenberg 15y ago
> I'd even pay more for one knowing it was made in the US. How much? Serious question, just curious.
- jrockway 15y ago
  I can answer that. I recently wanted to replace the brakes on my commuting bike. I narrowed it down to two possible makes; Paul or Avid. Paul is a tiny company based in California, Avid is a brand of SRAM (one of the "big three" bicycle components manufacturers). Paul's brakes cost $110 per wheel (for the polished aluminum). Avid's cost $88 per wheel (on Amazon, but list for $110) and aren't polished. (I am not 100% sure that SRAM outsources to China, but I'm sure they move many many more units than Paul.) Another example is Shimano freewheels vs. White Industries freewheels. Shimano makes fine equipment, but the White Industries freewheels are much better built and have proven to be much more durable. The price difference is something like $20 for the made-in-southeast-asia Shimano part, and $80 for the made-in-the-USA White Industries part. So, people will pay for quality, and there's only going to be a big price difference if you make billions of widgets per year. If nobody even competes with you and you aren't making enough units to justify buying your own CNC milling setup, I can't imagine why you would deal with the hassle of China. (Once I get tired of programming I think I am going to make bike parts, so I always read these manufacturing articles with interest.)
  - nl 15y ago
    (This aside it too interesting to leave...) Cycling is a fascinating industry. I've done quite a lot of research into it (mostly on the framebuilding side). These days the vast majority of non-custom (and especially carbon fibre) frames are made in China & Taiwan. Many smaller manufactures actually collaborate with a factory on a frame design, and the factory usually ends up owning the design. In a few cases larger manufactures screw up the process as well. For example, Bianchi famously got a Chinese factory to manufacture one of their high-end framesets but neglected to manage the IP properly and ended up in a situation where the Chinese factory owned the frame moulds and the rights to use them after 1 year (or 2 years?). Now you can buy fake Bianchi frames on ebay, but ironically they are actually legally produced (although branding them as Bianchis isn't legal).
    - jrockway 15y ago
      Interesting. I wonder if the Chinese factory is as careful about quality control with their own brand as they are with Bianchi's frames? I'd personally feel safer with a well-known brand frame because of the potential for carbon fiber to fail in strange ways.
      - nl 15y ago
        Generally, anecdotal evidence seems to indicate that the frames are pretty good. Usually they seem to be slightly heavier than top-of-the-line brand name frames, mostly because of the grade of carbon fibre. http://forums.roadbikereview.com/bikes-frames-forks/chinese-carbon-thread-ebay-direct-version-5-0-a-241785.html http://forums.roadbikereview.com/bikes-frames-forks/chinese-... and http://cheapcarbonframes.com/ http://cheapcarbonframes.com/ seem to have the most information. I've heard a few bad stories about Chinese titanium frames though (but titanium is always going to be more variable than carbon fibre because it is hand welded).
- jrockway 15y ago
  Sorry to reply twice, but I reread the Kickstarter page and discovered that people are paying $50 for these things. I'm pretty sure that one could afford to have these things made in the US and still turn a massive profit. Even if you pay someone $100 an hour to will these things into existence, I'm pretty sure you'll still come out ahead. $50 for a block of aluminum that you put a pen cartridge into. Wow.
  - mietek 15y ago
    The list price is actually $100 for a block of steel: http://shop.cwandt.com/ http://shop.cwandt.com/
kamaal 15y ago
Manufacturing is so much more than cost. I don't about US, but I tell you about India I country that I live in. I don't think as a country we will ever make up or compete with what China is doing currently. Although I can tell you you can hire people here at equally low prices. When you talk of manufacturing. The first sort is machine made the other ones are hiring human beings. The latter sort of is what is most tricky. You need people who are ready to do a repetitive job, that can add nothing to their knowledge on the longer and are ready to work for long hours for cheap wages. Most of that work is generally precision work that you can't do with machines. With machines, its a different story. You begin to see how you can recover your investment over time. But with people, you have to start to look at scalability issues. I don't know about America. But I think its worthwhile to ask a few questions. a. Is it possible to hire such large volume of people at such low prices in America. b. Will those people, be ready to work for long hours on repetitive mechanical oriented jobs. Which gives no value on a persons career on a longer run. c. Since these jobs are low paying, the retirement long term financial benefits won't be exciting. The health care benefits won't be much. d. Since industries have to be all at one place, for inventory co ordination, infrastructure issues et al. People will be forced to live in low rent houses. Often of sharing and accommodation basis. Is this lifestyle ok with those mass quantity of people. The way I see American lifestyle is more driven by spending, and expenses are really high for an ordinary American. Both in terms of daily expenditure and other issues like sending kids to college and medical benefits. The larger question is will the mass American crowd adopt to the lifestyle I describe? If the answer is yes, I see no reason why this can't be done in the USA. In fact if it can be done, then it must be encouraged. The government must make it easy and facilitate them. Why should the average American suffer because of me in India or some one in China. If any thing that can be done here(India/China) it can be done there(America) if the conditions are suitable.(both in terms of economic and other factors).

huhtenberg 15y ago

> I'd even pay more for one knowing it was made in the US. How much? Serious question, just curious.

jrockway 15y ago
I can answer that. I recently wanted to replace the brakes on my commuting bike. I narrowed it down to two possible makes; Paul or Avid. Paul is a tiny company based in California, Avid is a brand of SRAM (one of the "big three" bicycle components manufacturers). Paul's brakes cost $110 per wheel (for the polished aluminum). Avid's cost $88 per wheel (on Amazon, but list for $110) and aren't polished. (I am not 100% sure that SRAM outsources to China, but I'm sure they move many many more units than Paul.) Another example is Shimano freewheels vs. White Industries freewheels. Shimano makes fine equipment, but the White Industries freewheels are much better built and have proven to be much more durable. The price difference is something like $20 for the made-in-southeast-asia Shimano part, and $80 for the made-in-the-USA White Industries part. So, people will pay for quality, and there's only going to be a big price difference if you make billions of widgets per year. If nobody even competes with you and you aren't making enough units to justify buying your own CNC milling setup, I can't imagine why you would deal with the hassle of China. (Once I get tired of programming I think I am going to make bike parts, so I always read these manufacturing articles with interest.)
- nl 15y ago
  (This aside it too interesting to leave...) Cycling is a fascinating industry. I've done quite a lot of research into it (mostly on the framebuilding side). These days the vast majority of non-custom (and especially carbon fibre) frames are made in China & Taiwan. Many smaller manufactures actually collaborate with a factory on a frame design, and the factory usually ends up owning the design. In a few cases larger manufactures screw up the process as well. For example, Bianchi famously got a Chinese factory to manufacture one of their high-end framesets but neglected to manage the IP properly and ended up in a situation where the Chinese factory owned the frame moulds and the rights to use them after 1 year (or 2 years?). Now you can buy fake Bianchi frames on ebay, but ironically they are actually legally produced (although branding them as Bianchis isn't legal).
  - jrockway 15y ago
    Interesting. I wonder if the Chinese factory is as careful about quality control with their own brand as they are with Bianchi's frames? I'd personally feel safer with a well-known brand frame because of the potential for carbon fiber to fail in strange ways.
    - nl 15y ago
      Generally, anecdotal evidence seems to indicate that the frames are pretty good. Usually they seem to be slightly heavier than top-of-the-line brand name frames, mostly because of the grade of carbon fibre. http://forums.roadbikereview.com/bikes-frames-forks/chinese-carbon-thread-ebay-direct-version-5-0-a-241785.html http://forums.roadbikereview.com/bikes-frames-forks/chinese-... and http://cheapcarbonframes.com/ http://cheapcarbonframes.com/ seem to have the most information. I've heard a few bad stories about Chinese titanium frames though (but titanium is always going to be more variable than carbon fibre because it is hand welded).
jrockway 15y ago
Sorry to reply twice, but I reread the Kickstarter page and discovered that people are paying $50 for these things. I'm pretty sure that one could afford to have these things made in the US and still turn a massive profit. Even if you pay someone $100 an hour to will these things into existence, I'm pretty sure you'll still come out ahead. $50 for a block of aluminum that you put a pen cartridge into. Wow.
- mietek 15y ago
  The list price is actually $100 for a block of steel: http://shop.cwandt.com/ http://shop.cwandt.com/

kamaal 15y ago

Manufacturing is so much more than cost. I don't about US, but I tell you about India I country that I live in. I don't think as a country we will ever make up or compete with what China is doing currently. Although I can tell you you can hire people here at equally low prices. When you talk of manufacturing. The first sort is machine made the other ones are hiring human beings. The latter sort of is what is most tricky. You need people who are ready to do a repetitive job, that can add nothing to their knowledge on the longer and are ready to work for long hours for cheap wages. Most of that work is generally precision work that you can't do with machines. With machines, its a different story. You begin to see how you can recover your investment over time. But with people, you have to start to look at scalability issues. I don't know about America. But I think its worthwhile to ask a few questions. a. Is it possible to hire such large volume of people at such low prices in America. b. Will those people, be ready to work for long hours on repetitive mechanical oriented jobs. Which gives no value on a persons career on a longer run. c. Since these jobs are low paying, the retirement long term financial benefits won't be exciting. The health care benefits won't be much. d. Since industries have to be all at one place, for inventory co ordination, infrastructure issues et al. People will be forced to live in low rent houses. Often of sharing and accommodation basis. Is this lifestyle ok with those mass quantity of people. The way I see American lifestyle is more driven by spending, and expenses are really high for an ordinary American. Both in terms of daily expenditure and other issues like sending kids to college and medical benefits. The larger question is will the mass American crowd adopt to the lifestyle I describe? If the answer is yes, I see no reason why this can't be done in the USA. In fact if it can be done, then it must be encouraged. The government must make it easy and facilitate them. Why should the average American suffer because of me in India or some one in China. If any thing that can be done here(India/China) it can be done there(America) if the conditions are suitable.(both in terms of economic and other factors).