3 ms·

I didn't say anything like that. I never said you didn't know your thing about industrial engineering, but if you had practiced lean software, you would know th

I didn't say anything like that. I never said you didn't know your thing about industrial engineering, but if you had practiced lean software, you would know that beyond the name and a few key concepts, it has been greatly adapted and cleverly tailored to take into account the reality of software engineering constraints. All I'm saying is that I have seen it work on several SOFTWARE projects, now have you even tried it for real? (sincerely and humbly asking...)

plinkplonk 15y ago
"but if you had practiced lean software," and "have you even tried it for real?" sure. I have (and your assumption otherwise, as evidenced in your "if only people knew what they were talking about" opinion is revealing). Here is a war story fwiw I didn't decide the methodology on this project, I was just part of the team - (the only "methodology" I believe in for sw dev is "hire bright people and let them figure it out") On this particular project,there was a "lean and agile coach" (who had a PHB backing his efforts) who had a card wall where he monitored the "work in progress" and "queue size" and so on. It was obvious he had zero manufacturing experience, had never seen a real assembly line (or work cell or kanban card) and had just read this stuff up in the 'lean software' books (the authors of whom, in common with the agile gurus have zero credibility as devs or product designers) . As expected, the project ran into trouble, the devs revolted at being treated like assembly line workers, the "coach" eventually got fired (along with the middle manager who mandated the change) and the team went back to their previous "we figure what makes sense to us and fits our environment " 'methodology' and software delivery improved, the clients were happy and all was well again. The lean terminology is a source of team jokes now -eg: "I just visited the bathroom to get rid of some muda", "Anyone monitoring he WIP for a coffee?" And oh yes I expect to hear the "No True Scotsman" defense. "That wasn't real lean software. Hire me and I'll tell you how to do it 'right' ". Right. The more important point is, without experience in both manufacturing and software dev, it is terribly easy to get carried away by stories about Toyota's success in car making (and the 'lean software' authors and consultants are careful to sprinkle Toyota anecdotes throughout their books and slides - none of them have worked at Toyota afaik) and adopt random elements of their assembly line processes, (or to be more precise, what you THINK is happening in a Toyota factory) into your sw dev. "cleverly tailored" my ass. "Cleverly marketed" is more accurate. Any successful "tailoring" would need the tailor to be an accomplished expert in both sw dev and lean manufacturing and be at the top of their game in both fields - a combination of Linus Torvalds and Taichi Ohno. I am not sure such people even exist. What we have are consultants with mediocre dev skills and zero manufacturing experience who scramble from RUP to agile to lean software to whatever-fad-is-next and are always looking for the next fad to ride, the next book to write, and the next conference to speak at.
- sarbogast 15y ago
  And it's not because you anticipated the "No True Scotsman" defense that I will refrain from using it as it is totally relevant. Using one specific case to disprove an entire methodology, be it such a poor counter-example, is "shaky evidence" at best. But I'm the one who should get a stats education, right? Once again, good luck to find any success in your angry little ivory tower, as luck seems to be the only thing that can save you. End of trolling.
  - plinkplonk 15y ago
    "Using one specific case to disprove an entire methodology, be it such a poor counter-example, is "shaky evidence" at best." heh but you used equally anecdotal data and equally shaky evidence to support the snake oil methods. I quote "I have experienced lean software first hand and I can tell you it is no fad. I have set up Kanban in companies a couple of times and the results were excellent" So you say. Your anecdotes and experience are valid but mine are not. ;) Very convincing. This is the standard snake oil salesman defense- when a methodology fails it is always because people didn't do it right. Nothing intrinsically screwy with the fad itself. And when you claim some unverifiable successes that is convincing evidence about the intrinsic soundness of whatever you are defending. Pathetic. For every anecdotal "success story" you can find an equally anecdotal "failure story". Which was the point. And went right over your head. There was no claim this was evidence. (as someone trained in engineering and stats, I use the word "evidence" and "proof" very carefully). "But I'm the one who should get a stats education, right?" well you are the one who brought in an agile methodologists silly home grown survey as 'evidence' (when specifically asked for a non vendorware peer reviewed citation mind you) for some grandiose claims. This shows (assuming you weren't just trolling) that you don't know how to judge the statistical validity of a survey or when to use one as evidence. If you really believe Ambler's marketing spin on agile is some kind of convincing 'evidence' for the validity of "lean software" you definitely need to learn some stats (among other things). "End of trolling." Thank You for finally admitting you were trolling. That clears things up. Wrong forum. On HN the assumption is that people are being genuine even if their writing style is abrasive. If I thought you were trolling (vs just being a bit incoherent) I wouldn't have responded to you at all. Live and learn :)

plinkplonk 15y ago

"but if you had practiced lean software," and "have you even tried it for real?" sure. I have (and your assumption otherwise, as evidenced in your "if only people knew what they were talking about" opinion is revealing). Here is a war story fwiw I didn't decide the methodology on this project, I was just part of the team - (the only "methodology" I believe in for sw dev is "hire bright people and let them figure it out") On this particular project,there was a "lean and agile coach" (who had a PHB backing his efforts) who had a card wall where he monitored the "work in progress" and "queue size" and so on. It was obvious he had zero manufacturing experience, had never seen a real assembly line (or work cell or kanban card) and had just read this stuff up in the 'lean software' books (the authors of whom, in common with the agile gurus have zero credibility as devs or product designers) . As expected, the project ran into trouble, the devs revolted at being treated like assembly line workers, the "coach" eventually got fired (along with the middle manager who mandated the change) and the team went back to their previous "we figure what makes sense to us and fits our environment " 'methodology' and software delivery improved, the clients were happy and all was well again. The lean terminology is a source of team jokes now -eg: "I just visited the bathroom to get rid of some muda", "Anyone monitoring he WIP for a coffee?" And oh yes I expect to hear the "No True Scotsman" defense. "That wasn't real lean software. Hire me and I'll tell you how to do it 'right' ". Right. The more important point is, without experience in both manufacturing and software dev, it is terribly easy to get carried away by stories about Toyota's success in car making (and the 'lean software' authors and consultants are careful to sprinkle Toyota anecdotes throughout their books and slides - none of them have worked at Toyota afaik) and adopt random elements of their assembly line processes, (or to be more precise, what you THINK is happening in a Toyota factory) into your sw dev. "cleverly tailored" my ass. "Cleverly marketed" is more accurate. Any successful "tailoring" would need the tailor to be an accomplished expert in both sw dev and lean manufacturing and be at the top of their game in both fields - a combination of Linus Torvalds and Taichi Ohno. I am not sure such people even exist. What we have are consultants with mediocre dev skills and zero manufacturing experience who scramble from RUP to agile to lean software to whatever-fad-is-next and are always looking for the next fad to ride, the next book to write, and the next conference to speak at.

sarbogast 15y ago
And it's not because you anticipated the "No True Scotsman" defense that I will refrain from using it as it is totally relevant. Using one specific case to disprove an entire methodology, be it such a poor counter-example, is "shaky evidence" at best. But I'm the one who should get a stats education, right? Once again, good luck to find any success in your angry little ivory tower, as luck seems to be the only thing that can save you. End of trolling.
- plinkplonk 15y ago
  "Using one specific case to disprove an entire methodology, be it such a poor counter-example, is "shaky evidence" at best." heh but you used equally anecdotal data and equally shaky evidence to support the snake oil methods. I quote "I have experienced lean software first hand and I can tell you it is no fad. I have set up Kanban in companies a couple of times and the results were excellent" So you say. Your anecdotes and experience are valid but mine are not. ;) Very convincing. This is the standard snake oil salesman defense- when a methodology fails it is always because people didn't do it right. Nothing intrinsically screwy with the fad itself. And when you claim some unverifiable successes that is convincing evidence about the intrinsic soundness of whatever you are defending. Pathetic. For every anecdotal "success story" you can find an equally anecdotal "failure story". Which was the point. And went right over your head. There was no claim this was evidence. (as someone trained in engineering and stats, I use the word "evidence" and "proof" very carefully). "But I'm the one who should get a stats education, right?" well you are the one who brought in an agile methodologists silly home grown survey as 'evidence' (when specifically asked for a non vendorware peer reviewed citation mind you) for some grandiose claims. This shows (assuming you weren't just trolling) that you don't know how to judge the statistical validity of a survey or when to use one as evidence. If you really believe Ambler's marketing spin on agile is some kind of convincing 'evidence' for the validity of "lean software" you definitely need to learn some stats (among other things). "End of trolling." Thank You for finally admitting you were trolling. That clears things up. Wrong forum. On HN the assumption is that people are being genuine even if their writing style is abrasive. If I thought you were trolling (vs just being a bit incoherent) I wouldn't have responded to you at all. Live and learn :)