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That sounds like a utilitarian dystopia. Where I'm from, universities don't charge tuition, but you still get a small allowance as a student, and you can add o

That sounds like a utilitarian dystopia. Where I'm from, universities don't charge tuition, but you still get a small allowance as a student, and you can add on to that with a student loan to cover living costs. Loan interest and repayments are the same for everyone and based on your salary, it's all backed by the government, and if you don't pay back your loans before the age of 65, your loan is forgiven. Given all of this, it is much easier to calculate if an education is "worth it" or not than in the US market, because you can look at average salary progression in different fields to do a pretty good estimate of whether or not you'll repay your student loan before retirement. These calculations are routinely done by unions and career guides and university recruiters, and the usual suspects are worth it; STEM education, medicine, MBAs etc, while the more liberal-artsy you get, the more likely you are to never ever repay your student debt and therefore be a "bad" investment of educational budgets. And you know what? I'm fine with that. I'm fine with government subsidizing all of these "bad" educational programmes. For the fun of it. For the hell of it. Because some people like it. I am happily paying taxes so that someone else can get an education in ancient Peruvian anthropology with a minor in medieval French poetry for the absolute sheer fucking delight of it. The goal of society is happiness, not productivity.

xyzzyz 5y ago
> Given all of this, it is much easier to calculate if an education is "worth it" or not than in the US market, because you can look at average salary progression in different fields to do a pretty good estimate of whether or not you'll repay your student loan before retirement. It's harder than you think. You also need to take into account probability of actually finishing the degree vs dropping out (which depends on your individual ability, preferences, and other aspects), likelihood of actually getting a job in the field after completing a degree (e.g. there are many more people with a diploma in History than there are jobs in that field), job satisfaction (some jobs tend to have much lower or higher job satisfaction than others, which often is not clear to high-schoolers, and which results in wide discrepancies of monetary compensation, to make up for low or high job satisfaction), and other things too. The entire subject of this conversation, Caplan's spreadsheet, is exactly his attempt to estimate all of that.
- henrikschroder 5y ago
  > The entire subject of this conversation, Caplan's spreadsheet, is exactly his attempt to estimate all of that. Yes, but what I'm saying is that I don't care! People don't care! If you make your educational decisions based on optimizing the rat-race and delaying gratification in favour of some future calculated benefit, you're also the kind of person who has no idea what to do with it when you get there! My counter-argument isn't rational or analytical or quantifiable, it's irrational! Emotional! Caplan might be correct. But boring.
  - xyzzyz 5y ago
    That only begs another question: if the point of education is not learning things and building human capital, but rather play and self-expression, why do we put on the charade of classes and exams? If play and self-expression is so important for young adults, why would anyone think that college as it actually exists is the best way for them to get it? Why does the state subsidize college education, instead of private businesses, which offer 4 year programs specifically designed to allow attendees have lives full of fun and joy, without stressing them with memorizing of useless (to them) facts that they'll permanently forget as soon as they leave the examination room? I mean, I have a lot of good ideas for a 4 year self-actualization program, why won't government give people non-dischargeable $100k+ loans to attend it?
    - henrikschroder 5y ago
      > if the point of education is not learning things and building human capital, but rather play and self-expression Wow, that's the falsest false dichotomy I've seen in a long time. Por que no los dos?
  - lelanthran 5y ago
    > If you make your educational decisions based on optimizing the rat-race and delaying gratification in favour of some future calculated benefit, you're also the kind of person who has no idea what to do with it when you get there! Do you have any data to support your conclusion?
6510 5y ago
I would, with a straight face, suggest everyone is wrong and the real purpose of education should be building better voters.
sonofhans 5y ago
> I am happily paying taxes so that someone else can get an education in ancient Peruvian anthropology with a minor in medieval French poetry for the absolute sheer fucking delight of it. Oh, I love this. What a droll, dull world without this attitude. Many of our societies are rich beyond imagination; we have more than enough to support all sorts of activities which don’t directly increase someone’s wealth. It’s one thing about a rich society without a public safety net: people are more jealous and resentful of perceived freeloaders, i.e., anyone not directly employed in the increase of capital.
ekianjo 5y ago
> The goal of society is happiness, not productivity. Who are you to decide?

xyzzyz 5y ago

> Given all of this, it is much easier to calculate if an education is "worth it" or not than in the US market, because you can look at average salary progression in different fields to do a pretty good estimate of whether or not you'll repay your student loan before retirement. It's harder than you think. You also need to take into account probability of actually finishing the degree vs dropping out (which depends on your individual ability, preferences, and other aspects), likelihood of actually getting a job in the field after completing a degree (e.g. there are many more people with a diploma in History than there are jobs in that field), job satisfaction (some jobs tend to have much lower or higher job satisfaction than others, which often is not clear to high-schoolers, and which results in wide discrepancies of monetary compensation, to make up for low or high job satisfaction), and other things too. The entire subject of this conversation, Caplan's spreadsheet, is exactly his attempt to estimate all of that.

henrikschroder 5y ago
> The entire subject of this conversation, Caplan's spreadsheet, is exactly his attempt to estimate all of that. Yes, but what I'm saying is that I don't care! People don't care! If you make your educational decisions based on optimizing the rat-race and delaying gratification in favour of some future calculated benefit, you're also the kind of person who has no idea what to do with it when you get there! My counter-argument isn't rational or analytical or quantifiable, it's irrational! Emotional! Caplan might be correct. But boring.
- xyzzyz 5y ago
  That only begs another question: if the point of education is not learning things and building human capital, but rather play and self-expression, why do we put on the charade of classes and exams? If play and self-expression is so important for young adults, why would anyone think that college as it actually exists is the best way for them to get it? Why does the state subsidize college education, instead of private businesses, which offer 4 year programs specifically designed to allow attendees have lives full of fun and joy, without stressing them with memorizing of useless (to them) facts that they'll permanently forget as soon as they leave the examination room? I mean, I have a lot of good ideas for a 4 year self-actualization program, why won't government give people non-dischargeable $100k+ loans to attend it?
  - henrikschroder 5y ago
    > if the point of education is not learning things and building human capital, but rather play and self-expression Wow, that's the falsest false dichotomy I've seen in a long time. Por que no los dos?
- lelanthran 5y ago
  > If you make your educational decisions based on optimizing the rat-race and delaying gratification in favour of some future calculated benefit, you're also the kind of person who has no idea what to do with it when you get there! Do you have any data to support your conclusion?

6510 5y ago

I would, with a straight face, suggest everyone is wrong and the real purpose of education should be building better voters.

sonofhans 5y ago

> I am happily paying taxes so that someone else can get an education in ancient Peruvian anthropology with a minor in medieval French poetry for the absolute sheer fucking delight of it. Oh, I love this. What a droll, dull world without this attitude. Many of our societies are rich beyond imagination; we have more than enough to support all sorts of activities which don’t directly increase someone’s wealth. It’s one thing about a rich society without a public safety net: people are more jealous and resentful of perceived freeloaders, i.e., anyone not directly employed in the increase of capital.

ekianjo 5y ago

> The goal of society is happiness, not productivity. Who are you to decide?