5 ms·

The nature of these kinds of errors is that when the error favors Amazon (or whatever company), it's "keep the lights on" mode. If it's the company losing money

The nature of these kinds of errors is that when the error favors Amazon (or whatever company), it's "keep the lights on" mode. If it's the company losing money then alarm bells ring, and it's "all hands on deck" to fix the issue.

banku_brougham 5y ago
OP clarified the opposite here. As former amazon retail I can confirm we commonly lost money to vendors, sellers, and customers. Funny example was prime day promo fat fingered, with several expensive lenses shipped for $99.
- bonestamp2 5y ago
  I remember that deal being shared online, and being corrected fairly quickly.
- aloer 5y ago
  Fat fingered is one thing. The best price error I’ve seen was something else: In 2020 the German government lowered VAT in a reaction to covid from 19% to 16%. On the first day Amazon had reduced thousands of products by exactly 19% and only increased by 16% after a few hours. AFAIK they did honor every sale during that time. I can totally see that happening. Who develops systems with short term VAT changes in mind? Aldi iirc just kept the old prices and simply gave a 3% discount at checkout
  - iqanq 5y ago
    >I can totally see that happening. Who develops systems with short term VAT changes in mind? I suppose it's the same codebase as any other country's amazon, and there's a different VAT rate in every country.
    - eru 5y ago
      VAT is baked into retail prices in Germany. And retail prices are typically either something round or end in .99 or so; ie not arbitrary. So it's unlikely their German prices would just take the same input as eg Dutch prices and changed the VAT around.
      - iqanq 5y ago
        I know how VAT works. If the government changes the VAT overnight then prices won't round to .99 until merchants (or Amazon themselves) change the base price again. I don't see the issue.
        germanier 5y ago
        Usually in B2C prices are quoted and agreed upon as gross price (including tax). If the tax rate is lowered, this then raises the base price.
        eru 5y ago
        I mentioned this, because American retail prices as quoted typically don't include their equivalent of VAT.
    - aloer 5y ago
      I looked this up just now and apparently Amazons case is more complicated due to things like sold by Amazon (16%) vs third party sellers (they got to choose if they pass it down to the customer or not). It was an economy stimulus after all. And apparently fixed book prices (printed on the back) were up to every single publisher to decide about Then you also have different VAT rules depending on the product category. Food is 7% in Germany. Lastly I also remember that Amazon gift cards were weird for a few hours. Something like you pay 48.50 and got 50€ worth of credit. I can’t remember if you could then use that credit to buy new gift cards. Lots of ways where this becomes quite a complex problem real fast
      - lozenge 5y ago
        Amazon sold all e books from Luxembourg to UK customers, charging them 3% VAT. When calculating royalties for publishers though, their contracts stipulated the 20% VAT rate would be used to reduce royalties. According to The Guardian, some received just 10% of the purchase price, similar to what Audible(also Amazon owned) is being accused of. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2012/oct/21/amazon-forces-publishers-pay-vat-ebook https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2012/oct/21/amazon-fo... Uber also sold UK journeys to UK customers but put the fare calculation taximeter in a server in another country to avoid the 20% VAT. I believe they actually won that case as in the EU, VAT is calculated by the seller using their country's laws regardless of the buyer's country's VAT rates and laws.
        germanier 5y ago
        Since 2015, VAT on eBooks is charged according to the buyer's country, see e.g. https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/electronically-supplied-services_en https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/electronically-supplie... This is also reflected on my invoices from Amazon. VAT law is harmonized across the EU, which country's rate is applicable is based on a rather complex (and ever changing) set of rules, but nowadays it's mostly the buyer's country.
  - speleding 5y ago
    > Aldi iirc just kept the old prices and simply gave a 3% discount at checkout I get your point, but they probably gave a discount of 1-(1.16/1.19) =~ 2.5%
    - aloer 5y ago
      Right. Since it was limited to a few months only I believe they just accepted the loss, put out some ads with 3% discount etc. Same with the lower VAT for food products. Probably also rounded down in favor for the customer but I can’t remember the details
- HWR_14 5y ago
  Amazon has a worked hard to develop a reputation of being pro-consumer. And yes they will eat consumer facing errors. I have not heard the same reputation made about vendors, and in fact I've heard quite a few horror story rumors about how they treat vendors. And these complaints (vague as they are) seem to focus on Amazon passing the cost of their customer obsession to their vendors. But yes, I expect if Amazon accidentally sold me an item for 1% of its actual value due to a typo they will honor it. I expect if they send me the wrong item they'll make it right. As a consumer, I'm not worried about them fixing any errors in their favor and ignoring any errors in my favor. I just don't expect them to treat their vendors the same way.
  - ldng 5y ago
    Well, in some countries they're legally bound to anyway.
    - HWR_14 5y ago
      Oh, I expect them to obey laws. And I certainly don't automatically believe that they are screwing over vendors in the same way I'll automatically believe claims of them going out of their way for customers. I was mostly pointing out that how they treat customers is not necessarily related to how they treat vendors.
rsanek 5y ago
Honestly, even that hasn't been my experience. I've seen multiple situations where there are known, significant under-billings but resourcing a project to clean that up somehow never materializes. Intuitively it doesn't make sense.

banku_brougham 5y ago

OP clarified the opposite here. As former amazon retail I can confirm we commonly lost money to vendors, sellers, and customers. Funny example was prime day promo fat fingered, with several expensive lenses shipped for $99.

bonestamp2 5y ago
I remember that deal being shared online, and being corrected fairly quickly.
aloer 5y ago
Fat fingered is one thing. The best price error I’ve seen was something else: In 2020 the German government lowered VAT in a reaction to covid from 19% to 16%. On the first day Amazon had reduced thousands of products by exactly 19% and only increased by 16% after a few hours. AFAIK they did honor every sale during that time. I can totally see that happening. Who develops systems with short term VAT changes in mind? Aldi iirc just kept the old prices and simply gave a 3% discount at checkout
- iqanq 5y ago
  >I can totally see that happening. Who develops systems with short term VAT changes in mind? I suppose it's the same codebase as any other country's amazon, and there's a different VAT rate in every country.
  - eru 5y ago
    VAT is baked into retail prices in Germany. And retail prices are typically either something round or end in .99 or so; ie not arbitrary. So it's unlikely their German prices would just take the same input as eg Dutch prices and changed the VAT around.
    - iqanq 5y ago
      I know how VAT works. If the government changes the VAT overnight then prices won't round to .99 until merchants (or Amazon themselves) change the base price again. I don't see the issue.
      - germanier 5y ago
        Usually in B2C prices are quoted and agreed upon as gross price (including tax). If the tax rate is lowered, this then raises the base price.
      - eru 5y ago
        I mentioned this, because American retail prices as quoted typically don't include their equivalent of VAT.
  - aloer 5y ago
    I looked this up just now and apparently Amazons case is more complicated due to things like sold by Amazon (16%) vs third party sellers (they got to choose if they pass it down to the customer or not). It was an economy stimulus after all. And apparently fixed book prices (printed on the back) were up to every single publisher to decide about Then you also have different VAT rules depending on the product category. Food is 7% in Germany. Lastly I also remember that Amazon gift cards were weird for a few hours. Something like you pay 48.50 and got 50€ worth of credit. I can’t remember if you could then use that credit to buy new gift cards. Lots of ways where this becomes quite a complex problem real fast
    - lozenge 5y ago
      Amazon sold all e books from Luxembourg to UK customers, charging them 3% VAT. When calculating royalties for publishers though, their contracts stipulated the 20% VAT rate would be used to reduce royalties. According to The Guardian, some received just 10% of the purchase price, similar to what Audible(also Amazon owned) is being accused of. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2012/oct/21/amazon-forces-publishers-pay-vat-ebook https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2012/oct/21/amazon-fo... Uber also sold UK journeys to UK customers but put the fare calculation taximeter in a server in another country to avoid the 20% VAT. I believe they actually won that case as in the EU, VAT is calculated by the seller using their country's laws regardless of the buyer's country's VAT rates and laws.
      - germanier 5y ago
        Since 2015, VAT on eBooks is charged according to the buyer's country, see e.g. https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/electronically-supplied-services_en https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/electronically-supplie... This is also reflected on my invoices from Amazon. VAT law is harmonized across the EU, which country's rate is applicable is based on a rather complex (and ever changing) set of rules, but nowadays it's mostly the buyer's country.
- speleding 5y ago
  > Aldi iirc just kept the old prices and simply gave a 3% discount at checkout I get your point, but they probably gave a discount of 1-(1.16/1.19) =~ 2.5%
  - aloer 5y ago
    Right. Since it was limited to a few months only I believe they just accepted the loss, put out some ads with 3% discount etc. Same with the lower VAT for food products. Probably also rounded down in favor for the customer but I can’t remember the details
HWR_14 5y ago
Amazon has a worked hard to develop a reputation of being pro-consumer. And yes they will eat consumer facing errors. I have not heard the same reputation made about vendors, and in fact I've heard quite a few horror story rumors about how they treat vendors. And these complaints (vague as they are) seem to focus on Amazon passing the cost of their customer obsession to their vendors. But yes, I expect if Amazon accidentally sold me an item for 1% of its actual value due to a typo they will honor it. I expect if they send me the wrong item they'll make it right. As a consumer, I'm not worried about them fixing any errors in their favor and ignoring any errors in my favor. I just don't expect them to treat their vendors the same way.
- ldng 5y ago
  Well, in some countries they're legally bound to anyway.
  - HWR_14 5y ago
    Oh, I expect them to obey laws. And I certainly don't automatically believe that they are screwing over vendors in the same way I'll automatically believe claims of them going out of their way for customers. I was mostly pointing out that how they treat customers is not necessarily related to how they treat vendors.

rsanek 5y ago

Honestly, even that hasn't been my experience. I've seen multiple situations where there are known, significant under-billings but resourcing a project to clean that up somehow never materializes. Intuitively it doesn't make sense.