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Several years ago, I wrote against a local option sales tax for schools with some uncomfortable data. This particular referendum was lost, but the next prevail

by chasil 5y ago

Several years ago, I wrote against a local option sales tax for schools with some uncomfortable data. This particular referendum was lost, but the next prevailed. We do not allocate money to education intelligently. As an aside, the comparison engine provided by the Federal Education Budget Project appears to have been taken down. [My Illinois town's] Schools have again placed a sales tax increase before the voters for the April 7th election. Voters should reject this increase after reviewing the financials below. In Iowa, the average 2013 teacher salary is $33,226. The Illinois average, however, is $37,166, which is above the national average of $36,141. Illinois teachers are (more than) fairly compensated. On a local focus, the Federal Education Budget Project lists the [nearby Iowa] Community School District budget for 2012 (which likely includes local option tax funds) as $174,000,000, which served 16,955 students for a per-student cost of $10,262. [My town's] budget for the same period was $76,568,000 and served 6,622 students, for a per-student cost of $11,562. [Our neighboring Illinois town's] budget for the same period was $78,817,000 and served 7,429 students, for a per-student cost of $10,609 per student. [Our nearby Illinois town's] academic performance is solidly ahead of [my town] - [our nearby Iowa town's] scores 70% and 66% proficient in the 2011 "No Child Left Behind" [high school] reading and math tests, while [my nearby Illinois town] respectively scores 46.9% and 53.8%, and [my town] trails the pack at 30.1% and 25.9%. [My nearby Iowa town] achieves performance dominance while spending $347 less per student than [my nearby Illinois town], and $1,300 less per student than [my town]. [My town's] schools should not ask for larger budgets, but instead trim costs and increase performance to match our nearby peers. If [my town's] schools cannot meet these standards, then perhaps we should consider outsourcing the maintenance of [my town's] schools to the [nearby Iowa town], which appears both more capable and thrifty by all measures. [My town's] students deserve better.

Jill_the_Pill 5y ago
The comparison is meaningless without knowing the needs of the two districts. Are the students in the thriftier district from wealthier households, for example, needing less support from school? Are there more ESL speakers in the costlier district? More students requiring special education? Are the buildings older, requiring more expensive upkeep? Some expenses don't break down to per-student or per-teacher. It's nice to say "trim costs and increase performance," but if a constellation of needs makes improved learning more costly in that context, you're stuck with it.
- chasil 5y ago
  My district does have an influx of people from Africa, I will admit. I rented one of my houses to such a family, but that is a story for another time. ...I will say also that our 8th grade scores put the other districts to shame (among the highest levels in the area), but the high school was our downfall.
  - baldeagle 5y ago
    like this generation migrated from Africa? Cause that seems awful close to saying that folks that had many systems tilted against them for a long time aren't up to par with folks that had systems working for them. As a higher post pointed out, catching up takes more resources than coasting on the hand downs from systems of generations past.
    - chasil 5y ago
      My relationship with them lasted many years, lasted through the pandemic, and they left angry. I am selling the house that I rented to them, and putting it into stocks. I don't know if this makes me a bad person, but I did want something better out of the experience at some point. That's past. I would not recommend rental property, but most of you know this by now. Nothing like being young and foolish.
taeric 5y ago
I'm at a loss for how trimming budget can ever really lead to increased performance. "Do better" is not a plan. And if you are behind, as in most areas of life, things are more expensive to catch up. I'm not aware of any case where this is not the way of things. Such that, in large, I would expect areas that have poor families to, in fact, be more expensive to educate than areas with well off families. Many of the kids are literally having to catch up. Not just learn the curriculum, but catch up on a lot of learning they never had access to. "Do better, or perish" is the way of small businesses. Where most of them fall into the perish scenario.
- chasil 5y ago
  Our high school scores for English and math were 30.1% and 25.9%. We had Iowa towns that were in the 90%s. No, I cannot compare them, you are right, these people were exactly where they should have been. Is this sentiment perhaps a bit biased, especially for what I am paying. (Yes, I live in one of the most affordable places in the U.S.)
  - taeric 5y ago
    I'm not even sure what you are suggesting, to be honest. My point was that if you want scores to improve, you will have to pay more. Pretty much period. You don't get improvement, at any level, for free. Certainly not by cutting funding. Keeping the same level of funding will at best tread water. Likely, the area will fall, though. And I certainly wouldn't be comfortable pushing that outcome.
    - chasil 5y ago
      Management talent makes more happen for less. That's what we expect, as industrial management moved our industry offshore. Education has no right of excusal. Perform.
      - taeric 5y ago
        Management talent, I would push, is largely a myth. I'm sure it matters more than I'd give it credit, but so does a lot of capital cost in infrastructure and support that are invisible in your numbers. And again, industry largely fails and goes bankrupt. Education and townships are not things I would feel comfortable pushing that outcome for. Also... Offshore movements were pushed not by shrewd management, but by shopping around for cheaper labor. Not sure how that is relevant here?
smnrchrds 5y ago
> In Iowa, the average 2013 teacher salary is $33,226. The Illinois average, however, is $37,166, which is above the national average of $36,141. Illinois teachers are (more than) fairly compensated. Where are you getting these numbers? According to BLS, median pay for elementary and high school teachers are respectively $60,660 and $62,870 per year. https://www.bls.gov/ooh/education-training-and-library/kindergarten-and-elementary-school-teachers.htm https://www.bls.gov/ooh/education-training-and-library/kinde... https://www.bls.gov/ooh/education-training-and-library/high-school-teachers.htm https://www.bls.gov/ooh/education-training-and-library/high-... EDIT: There is actually more granular information available as well. Fewer than 10% of elementary school teachers earn less than 40k per year. Probably fewer than 5% earn as much as or less than the 36k number you quoted for national average. https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes252021.htm#nat https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes252021.htm#nat

by chasil 5y ago

Jill_the_Pill 5y ago

The comparison is meaningless without knowing the needs of the two districts. Are the students in the thriftier district from wealthier households, for example, needing less support from school? Are there more ESL speakers in the costlier district? More students requiring special education? Are the buildings older, requiring more expensive upkeep? Some expenses don't break down to per-student or per-teacher. It's nice to say "trim costs and increase performance," but if a constellation of needs makes improved learning more costly in that context, you're stuck with it.

chasil 5y ago
My district does have an influx of people from Africa, I will admit. I rented one of my houses to such a family, but that is a story for another time. ...I will say also that our 8th grade scores put the other districts to shame (among the highest levels in the area), but the high school was our downfall.
- baldeagle 5y ago
  like this generation migrated from Africa? Cause that seems awful close to saying that folks that had many systems tilted against them for a long time aren't up to par with folks that had systems working for them. As a higher post pointed out, catching up takes more resources than coasting on the hand downs from systems of generations past.
  - chasil 5y ago
    My relationship with them lasted many years, lasted through the pandemic, and they left angry. I am selling the house that I rented to them, and putting it into stocks. I don't know if this makes me a bad person, but I did want something better out of the experience at some point. That's past. I would not recommend rental property, but most of you know this by now. Nothing like being young and foolish.

taeric 5y ago

I'm at a loss for how trimming budget can ever really lead to increased performance. "Do better" is not a plan. And if you are behind, as in most areas of life, things are more expensive to catch up. I'm not aware of any case where this is not the way of things. Such that, in large, I would expect areas that have poor families to, in fact, be more expensive to educate than areas with well off families. Many of the kids are literally having to catch up. Not just learn the curriculum, but catch up on a lot of learning they never had access to. "Do better, or perish" is the way of small businesses. Where most of them fall into the perish scenario.

chasil 5y ago
Our high school scores for English and math were 30.1% and 25.9%. We had Iowa towns that were in the 90%s. No, I cannot compare them, you are right, these people were exactly where they should have been. Is this sentiment perhaps a bit biased, especially for what I am paying. (Yes, I live in one of the most affordable places in the U.S.)
- taeric 5y ago
  I'm not even sure what you are suggesting, to be honest. My point was that if you want scores to improve, you will have to pay more. Pretty much period. You don't get improvement, at any level, for free. Certainly not by cutting funding. Keeping the same level of funding will at best tread water. Likely, the area will fall, though. And I certainly wouldn't be comfortable pushing that outcome.
  - chasil 5y ago
    Management talent makes more happen for less. That's what we expect, as industrial management moved our industry offshore. Education has no right of excusal. Perform.
    - taeric 5y ago
      Management talent, I would push, is largely a myth. I'm sure it matters more than I'd give it credit, but so does a lot of capital cost in infrastructure and support that are invisible in your numbers. And again, industry largely fails and goes bankrupt. Education and townships are not things I would feel comfortable pushing that outcome for. Also... Offshore movements were pushed not by shrewd management, but by shopping around for cheaper labor. Not sure how that is relevant here?

smnrchrds 5y ago

> In Iowa, the average 2013 teacher salary is $33,226. The Illinois average, however, is $37,166, which is above the national average of $36,141. Illinois teachers are (more than) fairly compensated. Where are you getting these numbers? According to BLS, median pay for elementary and high school teachers are respectively $60,660 and $62,870 per year. https://www.bls.gov/ooh/education-training-and-library/kindergarten-and-elementary-school-teachers.htm https://www.bls.gov/ooh/education-training-and-library/kinde... https://www.bls.gov/ooh/education-training-and-library/high-school-teachers.htm https://www.bls.gov/ooh/education-training-and-library/high-... EDIT: There is actually more granular information available as well. Fewer than 10% of elementary school teachers earn less than 40k per year. Probably fewer than 5% earn as much as or less than the 36k number you quoted for national average. https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes252021.htm#nat https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes252021.htm#nat