5 ms·

I worked very hard to pay off my loans, I don’t think my tax dollars should go to bailing people out of debt they agreed to repay.

colejohnson66 5y ago
They agreed because they had no choice. College is basically forced on every high schooler to the point that your guidance counselors ask you which one you choose and won’t take “none” as an answer. Ask me how I know. HR departments will also pass on your application unless it has a university listed. With the rising costs of tuition year after year, it’s becoming unreasonable. And when they’re not dischargable during bankruptcy, it’s giving a middle finger to the poor. Saying, “F you, I got mine” doesn’t solve anything. Something needs to be done about it.
- gjs278 5y ago
- BoorishBears 5y ago
  I didn't go. Could have went for free even, still didn't go. During interviews for my current position as an L6 in the AV space I wasn't asked until a degree until post offer, and even that was a recruiter asking in passing. Turns out you can just... not go to college and learn things on your own. - I don't necessarily agree that people with bad loans should hang out to dry, but in my opinion this mess should fall on schools first. They got to use 18 year olds to cosign unsecured loans. Simple as that. A school can't ask a bank for a $500 million dollar unsecured loan. But it can ask tens of thousands of kids to each bring back 50k. Now that the jig is up I want to see for-profit schools held accountable for the practice. The class of people affected by this are not the worse off in this country. There are a lot of places where trillions of tax dollars could be a bigger help than college grads.
- D13Fd 5y ago
  > With the rising costs of tuition year after year, it’s becoming unreasonable. And when they’re not dischargable during bankruptcy, it’s giving a middle finger to the poor. Saying, “F you, I got mine” doesn’t solve anything. Something needs to be done about it. I completely agree. But loan forgiveness, more student loans, or lowering the risk/cost/burden of student loans will only put more money in the system and drive up prices. Tuition costs are a horrible situation that really needs to be fixed somehow. But loan forgiveness will only make things worse.
  - xracy 5y ago
    Okay, then propose something better that will fix tuition costs. It's really easy to say "that'll never work", and really difficult to actually fix problems. If you want to make a contribution to internet forums, propose an alternative. Otherwise you're just an asshole on the internet. If it's the bigger problem, propose a better solution. And actively prove to me that not doing this is better than doing nothing. Because what you're proposing is the status quo, and we can both agree that's really shitty at the moment. Also, even if you fix tuition costs, it won't change the fact that there is a mountain of student loan debt that isn't going to get paid back. What should we do when people can't pay it back?
    - octopoc 5y ago
      Here are some proposals: 1. Fix the college accreditation process. Currently it involves colleges wining and dining accreditors for a week. Change the standards to be more practical and open up the possibility for more colleges. We could even change the accreditation so that it allows for things like trade school and apprenticeships. I think that would certainly fix tuition costs. 2. Push for making budgeting a required high school course in more high schools.
      - xracy 5y ago
        OR Get rid of superfluous school administration jobs. There's a lot of useless or superfluous middle management in colleges. But you're not going to get rid of them because they make the hiring decisions. 1. I don't know anything about the accreditation process, but sure, if there's excess spending there then not allowing people to bribe accreditors definitely seems like a positive decision. I can't imagine that fixes millions of dollars worth of tuition cost... But ultimately not opposed to it. 2. Famously high schools teaching people classes means they use it later on in life. Not saying we shouldn't teach people budgeting, just that I doubt that it will fix the number of kids that go to college when high schools also want people to go to college.
downrightmike 5y ago
How do you feel about golden hammers and toilets?
- D13Fd 5y ago
  Some wasteful government spending exists, so we shouldn't worry about any other wasteful government spending?
  - downrightmike 5y ago
    No, just that being a normal first world country that funds things that return real value, like an educated work force who pay back in higher taxes, is far more useful than fake spending to hide what is being done.
imilk 5y ago
Just because I've paid for healthcare my entire life (including bills owed to the hospital) doesn't mean other people should have to. And just because anyone has to do something that is terrible, doesn't mean that everyone else should be required to go through that terrible experience. Your reasoning is incredibly shortsighted and selfish.
- notch656a 5y ago
  No one is stopping you from engaging in private charity. I'm just asking you not to vote for men to come with guns to enforce your charitable endeavors. Right now the Amish are able to 'opt out of social security.' Very much this were an option for atheists and those outside of these religious exceptions. I'd agree to sign my death warrant and never be bailed out by society if they agree to let me opt out of the insurance plan.
  - netizen-936824 5y ago
    Single payer healthcare isn't considered charity in any other civilized country, its a government service and our private system is bloated in the first place. I'd rather have single payer over having a bunch of middle men leeching
    - notch656a 5y ago
      I'm fine with some consensual system where those who opt in to it can engage in it. So long as I can opt out (of both liabilities and benefits), even if it means forever signing my rights away to public healthcare, it's all good to me. Consent about your health care decisions is important in my opinion. >bunch of middle men leeching Hopefully attempt here won't merely substitute administrators and insurance leeches for government bureaucrat leeches. I'm all for tossing out the leeches. Concierge / cash only medical offices are one way to do this, but a well run single payer system could probably achieve it as well.
      - netizen-936824 5y ago
CodeShmode 5y ago
"Things were awful for me and they should be awful for you too"?
- slt2021 5y ago
  Why american taxpayer should pay for someone’s degree in basket weaving? While doctors and lawyers grind 100 hrs/week like crazy to pay off their college debt?
  - vkou 5y ago
    Thank you for pointing out this insanity, we'd all be better off if doctors didn't have to spend a few years grinding out million-dollar debts, and then go on to print millions over millions over the rest of their career. I have a radical idea. Make medical school free, and expand residency slots. Whatever this will cost will more than be made up by a dramatic reduction in doctor salaries[1]... And medical costs in this country coming back down to Earth. We don't charge people for elementary and high school because an educated population is necessary for the well-being of the country. Well, so is the availability of doctors. [1] The average general practitioner's lifetime earnings are 8.5 million. I'll happily pay a million for their schooling, if that number could be halved.
    - slt2021 5y ago
      there is nothing free, it is just someone else's money. the money wasted on bailing out student loans - has already been pocketed by Betsy Devos alike, maybe we should stop funding 18 y.o. for useless degrees from College of Lost Hope, AL. public schools are funded with housing property taxes, they are NOT free. Compare house prices in good school district vs bad and their tax bills
      - vkou 5y ago
        > there is nothing free, it is just someone else's money. And in the case of doctors, it's my money, and I can either pay now, or pay five times later.
AdmiralAsshat 5y ago
Counter: I worked very hard to minimize my student loans (I had less than 10k, and repaid them within a couple years), and I think they should be forgiven. Or at the very least, discharged with bankruptcy.
serioussecurity 5y ago
I'm very frustrated by this perspective. I want to live in a world full of intellectually curious, creative people who build things. I think we can best do that by giving people access to education, health care, housing, food, and physical safety. The positive externalities of an educated populace are massive. I think the choice is between: (1) punish people because it's fair, and live an objectively worse life because everyone around us is miserable and dysfunctional (2) tune policy to support people, and live an objectively better life because everyone around us is healthy, productive and creative. Immiserating debt destroys lives, and destroyed lives makes all of us worse off.
- PragmaticPulp 5y ago
  > I want to live in a world full of intellectually curious, creative people who build things. I think we can best do that by giving people access to education, health care, housing, food, and physical safety. > The positive externalities of an educated populace are massive. These people are already educated. Debt payoff ideas send money to people with degrees, but they do nothing for people didn't go to college or who haven't yet graduated. The problem needs to be solved at the source, not periodically bailed out after the fact. If you just pour more money into the system, tuition will skyrocket and people will become insensitive to the astronomical prices. Why even price compare if you just expect the government to pay it off for you later? Expenses would continue to spiral out of control at an accelerated rate.
  - D13Fd 5y ago
    Exactly. The lower the risk to borrowing, and the easier it is to borrow, the higher tuition prices will go.
- nickff 5y ago
  Your position seems to lack guiding or limiting principles. >"The positive externalities of an educated populace are massive." Forgiving existing debt does not increase the level of education of the populace. Conditionally forgiving future debts could, though there would be collateral effects. >"I think the choice is between: (1) punish people because it's fair, and live an objectively worse life because everyone around us is miserable and dysfunctional (2) tune policy to support people, and live an objectively better life because everyone around us is healthy, productive and creative." Failing to forgive debt is not a punishment, it's just holding people to their obligations. It definitely does support them, but the question would be why only support people who took on debt? Why not support the people who made different decisions too? >"Immiserating debt destroys lives, and destroyed lives makes all of us worse off." If you just want to forgive debt, why limit it to student loans? Why not forgive healthcare debts? What about consumer debt after Christmas? How about gambling debt? All of those make people worse off.
tossitaway9090 5y ago
I _just_ got mine paid off. I even went to one of the colleges where debt was forgiven (ITT Tech), but I didn't get one of the bullshit degrees like game design or whatever so I was able to pay mine off. I don't yet know how I feel about this, but I can't help but think its probably best for humanity that these people can live normal lives now. On the other hand, are these people now who I'm competing with for resources (e.g. housing, etc) All I really know is that I'm glad I finally paid mine off, at 34yrs old no less..
xracy 5y ago
Huh, That's a sunk-cost fallacy if I've ever seen one. But also, I love it when people's response to debt forgiveness is "I suffered, so other people should have to suffer too." I guess it's time to start taking people's eyes, it will save us time because we're all going to be blind sooner or later.

colejohnson66 5y ago

They agreed because they had no choice. College is basically forced on every high schooler to the point that your guidance counselors ask you which one you choose and won’t take “none” as an answer. Ask me how I know. HR departments will also pass on your application unless it has a university listed. With the rising costs of tuition year after year, it’s becoming unreasonable. And when they’re not dischargable during bankruptcy, it’s giving a middle finger to the poor. Saying, “F you, I got mine” doesn’t solve anything. Something needs to be done about it.

gjs278 5y ago
BoorishBears 5y ago
I didn't go. Could have went for free even, still didn't go. During interviews for my current position as an L6 in the AV space I wasn't asked until a degree until post offer, and even that was a recruiter asking in passing. Turns out you can just... not go to college and learn things on your own. - I don't necessarily agree that people with bad loans should hang out to dry, but in my opinion this mess should fall on schools first. They got to use 18 year olds to cosign unsecured loans. Simple as that. A school can't ask a bank for a $500 million dollar unsecured loan. But it can ask tens of thousands of kids to each bring back 50k. Now that the jig is up I want to see for-profit schools held accountable for the practice. The class of people affected by this are not the worse off in this country. There are a lot of places where trillions of tax dollars could be a bigger help than college grads.
D13Fd 5y ago
> With the rising costs of tuition year after year, it’s becoming unreasonable. And when they’re not dischargable during bankruptcy, it’s giving a middle finger to the poor. Saying, “F you, I got mine” doesn’t solve anything. Something needs to be done about it. I completely agree. But loan forgiveness, more student loans, or lowering the risk/cost/burden of student loans will only put more money in the system and drive up prices. Tuition costs are a horrible situation that really needs to be fixed somehow. But loan forgiveness will only make things worse.
- xracy 5y ago
  Okay, then propose something better that will fix tuition costs. It's really easy to say "that'll never work", and really difficult to actually fix problems. If you want to make a contribution to internet forums, propose an alternative. Otherwise you're just an asshole on the internet. If it's the bigger problem, propose a better solution. And actively prove to me that not doing this is better than doing nothing. Because what you're proposing is the status quo, and we can both agree that's really shitty at the moment. Also, even if you fix tuition costs, it won't change the fact that there is a mountain of student loan debt that isn't going to get paid back. What should we do when people can't pay it back?
  - octopoc 5y ago
    Here are some proposals: 1. Fix the college accreditation process. Currently it involves colleges wining and dining accreditors for a week. Change the standards to be more practical and open up the possibility for more colleges. We could even change the accreditation so that it allows for things like trade school and apprenticeships. I think that would certainly fix tuition costs. 2. Push for making budgeting a required high school course in more high schools.
    - xracy 5y ago
      OR Get rid of superfluous school administration jobs. There's a lot of useless or superfluous middle management in colleges. But you're not going to get rid of them because they make the hiring decisions. 1. I don't know anything about the accreditation process, but sure, if there's excess spending there then not allowing people to bribe accreditors definitely seems like a positive decision. I can't imagine that fixes millions of dollars worth of tuition cost... But ultimately not opposed to it. 2. Famously high schools teaching people classes means they use it later on in life. Not saying we shouldn't teach people budgeting, just that I doubt that it will fix the number of kids that go to college when high schools also want people to go to college.

downrightmike 5y ago

How do you feel about golden hammers and toilets?

D13Fd 5y ago
Some wasteful government spending exists, so we shouldn't worry about any other wasteful government spending?
- downrightmike 5y ago
  No, just that being a normal first world country that funds things that return real value, like an educated work force who pay back in higher taxes, is far more useful than fake spending to hide what is being done.

imilk 5y ago

Just because I've paid for healthcare my entire life (including bills owed to the hospital) doesn't mean other people should have to. And just because anyone has to do something that is terrible, doesn't mean that everyone else should be required to go through that terrible experience. Your reasoning is incredibly shortsighted and selfish.

notch656a 5y ago
No one is stopping you from engaging in private charity. I'm just asking you not to vote for men to come with guns to enforce your charitable endeavors. Right now the Amish are able to 'opt out of social security.' Very much this were an option for atheists and those outside of these religious exceptions. I'd agree to sign my death warrant and never be bailed out by society if they agree to let me opt out of the insurance plan.
- netizen-936824 5y ago
  Single payer healthcare isn't considered charity in any other civilized country, its a government service and our private system is bloated in the first place. I'd rather have single payer over having a bunch of middle men leeching
  - notch656a 5y ago
    I'm fine with some consensual system where those who opt in to it can engage in it. So long as I can opt out (of both liabilities and benefits), even if it means forever signing my rights away to public healthcare, it's all good to me. Consent about your health care decisions is important in my opinion. >bunch of middle men leeching Hopefully attempt here won't merely substitute administrators and insurance leeches for government bureaucrat leeches. I'm all for tossing out the leeches. Concierge / cash only medical offices are one way to do this, but a well run single payer system could probably achieve it as well.
    - netizen-936824 5y ago

CodeShmode 5y ago

"Things were awful for me and they should be awful for you too"?

slt2021 5y ago
Why american taxpayer should pay for someone’s degree in basket weaving? While doctors and lawyers grind 100 hrs/week like crazy to pay off their college debt?
- vkou 5y ago
  Thank you for pointing out this insanity, we'd all be better off if doctors didn't have to spend a few years grinding out million-dollar debts, and then go on to print millions over millions over the rest of their career. I have a radical idea. Make medical school free, and expand residency slots. Whatever this will cost will more than be made up by a dramatic reduction in doctor salaries[1]... And medical costs in this country coming back down to Earth. We don't charge people for elementary and high school because an educated population is necessary for the well-being of the country. Well, so is the availability of doctors. [1] The average general practitioner's lifetime earnings are 8.5 million. I'll happily pay a million for their schooling, if that number could be halved.
  - slt2021 5y ago
    there is nothing free, it is just someone else's money. the money wasted on bailing out student loans - has already been pocketed by Betsy Devos alike, maybe we should stop funding 18 y.o. for useless degrees from College of Lost Hope, AL. public schools are funded with housing property taxes, they are NOT free. Compare house prices in good school district vs bad and their tax bills
    - vkou 5y ago
      > there is nothing free, it is just someone else's money. And in the case of doctors, it's my money, and I can either pay now, or pay five times later.

AdmiralAsshat 5y ago

Counter: I worked very hard to minimize my student loans (I had less than 10k, and repaid them within a couple years), and I think they should be forgiven. Or at the very least, discharged with bankruptcy.

serioussecurity 5y ago

I'm very frustrated by this perspective. I want to live in a world full of intellectually curious, creative people who build things. I think we can best do that by giving people access to education, health care, housing, food, and physical safety. The positive externalities of an educated populace are massive. I think the choice is between: (1) punish people because it's fair, and live an objectively worse life because everyone around us is miserable and dysfunctional (2) tune policy to support people, and live an objectively better life because everyone around us is healthy, productive and creative. Immiserating debt destroys lives, and destroyed lives makes all of us worse off.

PragmaticPulp 5y ago
> I want to live in a world full of intellectually curious, creative people who build things. I think we can best do that by giving people access to education, health care, housing, food, and physical safety. > The positive externalities of an educated populace are massive. These people are already educated. Debt payoff ideas send money to people with degrees, but they do nothing for people didn't go to college or who haven't yet graduated. The problem needs to be solved at the source, not periodically bailed out after the fact. If you just pour more money into the system, tuition will skyrocket and people will become insensitive to the astronomical prices. Why even price compare if you just expect the government to pay it off for you later? Expenses would continue to spiral out of control at an accelerated rate.
- D13Fd 5y ago
  Exactly. The lower the risk to borrowing, and the easier it is to borrow, the higher tuition prices will go.
nickff 5y ago
Your position seems to lack guiding or limiting principles. >"The positive externalities of an educated populace are massive." Forgiving existing debt does not increase the level of education of the populace. Conditionally forgiving future debts could, though there would be collateral effects. >"I think the choice is between: (1) punish people because it's fair, and live an objectively worse life because everyone around us is miserable and dysfunctional (2) tune policy to support people, and live an objectively better life because everyone around us is healthy, productive and creative." Failing to forgive debt is not a punishment, it's just holding people to their obligations. It definitely does support them, but the question would be why only support people who took on debt? Why not support the people who made different decisions too? >"Immiserating debt destroys lives, and destroyed lives makes all of us worse off." If you just want to forgive debt, why limit it to student loans? Why not forgive healthcare debts? What about consumer debt after Christmas? How about gambling debt? All of those make people worse off.

tossitaway9090 5y ago

I _just_ got mine paid off. I even went to one of the colleges where debt was forgiven (ITT Tech), but I didn't get one of the bullshit degrees like game design or whatever so I was able to pay mine off. I don't yet know how I feel about this, but I can't help but think its probably best for humanity that these people can live normal lives now. On the other hand, are these people now who I'm competing with for resources (e.g. housing, etc) All I really know is that I'm glad I finally paid mine off, at 34yrs old no less..

xracy 5y ago

Huh, That's a sunk-cost fallacy if I've ever seen one. But also, I love it when people's response to debt forgiveness is "I suffered, so other people should have to suffer too." I guess it's time to start taking people's eyes, it will save us time because we're all going to be blind sooner or later.