3 ms·

>As for rent, the property owners just pass the cost on to the tenants by increasing rent Rents would either remain unchanged or go down. I dont magic myself

by pydry 5y ago

>As for rent, the property owners just pass the cost on to the tenants by increasing rent Rents would either remain unchanged or go down. I dont magic myself a raise because income tax goes up. It works the same for landlords. If supply and demand remains unchanged, prices remain unchanged. The only change I could forsee to affect either is previously empty properties being put up for rent in order to cover tax payments to turn property liabilities back into property assets. This would increase supply. >Plus, if the wealthy are renting out the majority of the properties, then they can make up for tax increases by raising rents They'd really love for that to be how it works and sometimes they pretend it is.

giantg2 5y ago
"I dont magic myself a raise because income tax goes up. It works the same for landlords. If supply and demand remains unchanged, prices remain unchanged." What you're missing is that the market floor get universally pushed up. There's no competition from cheaper places because they all increased their rent to cover the new coat so they can still make their same margin. The demand is still there because people still need a place to live. "The only change I could forsee to affect either is previously empty properties being put up for rent" Any numbers on that, or are you just going to keep claiming it's a big enough vacant supply to significantly affect prices? "They'd really love for that to be how it works and sometimes they pretend it is." This is still tied to the previous comment. If the number of vacancies are not sufficient, then supply is adequately constrained to just increase the prices to cover costs. Because, again, this increase moves the market floor.
- lurgburg 5y ago
  > they all increased their rent Why would they not have done this before, if they could? Landlords aren't trying to maintain some fixed margin, they want as much as possible, always.
  - giantg2 5y ago
    Because of competition. They can't all conspire together to price fix (or if they do they could be arrested).
    - lurgburg 5y ago
      Writing in context of preceding comment, which seemed to be predicated on them having a special capacity to raise prices in response to land taxes. I did wonder briefly if a land tax might decrease competition => higher prices, but then I recalled that the supply of land is fixed.
      - giantg2 5y ago
        If it's s limited resource which people require (shelters), the price (rent) will be quite elastic. There will still be competition if the taxes go up. Competition is what prevents the price from rising unnecessary. The floor for all the competitors went up because taxes went up and they all want to stay profitable. They aren't going to take loss, so they raise rent to cover it. Buying won't look very attractive either because the tax increase raises those costs, and if it's as significant as they other poster wanted (to affect rich people) then it will likely exceed the $10k SALT deduction limit. This SALT deduction is part of how they penalize landlords already, which is just passed on in the rent payments. This is part of the reason renting is more expensive than buying (comparing just monthly payments), in addition to management fees, profit, and repair/renovation reserves.
  - majormajor 5y ago
    The last few cities I've lived in have seen 10+ straight years of rent increases (with a brief drop then rapid spike again from COVID) so... they do already do this?
    - lurgburg 5y ago
      Writing in the context of preceding comment. Landlords increase prices as much as they're able, they don't decline to increase when they could to maintain some fixed margin. I'm not saying they're generally unable to rise prices in general, but that they have no special additional capacity to raise prices in response to land taxes.
      - giantg2 5y ago
        "but that they have no special additional capacity to raise prices in response to land taxes." How so? If all landlords now have a significant new cost, why would they not raise rent to cover it? This seems to say they cover 80-90% of tax increases through rent increases. And commercial properties should be more competitive. https://mitcre.mit.edu/news/blog/can-landlords-really-pass-higher-property-taxes-tenants https://mitcre.mit.edu/news/blog/can-landlords-really-pass-h...
- pydry 5y ago
  >What you're missing is that the market floor get universally pushed up. There's no competition from cheaper places because they all increased their rent to cover the new coat so they can still make their same margin. You're saying that it doesnt matter if supply and demand remains unchanged, rent goes up coz every landlord independently decided that it does?
  - giantg2 5y ago
    Not that they decided it does, but generally that they all had to in order to stay profitable. Part of this is due to the othwr commenter's suggested goal that the rise in rates be significant enough to demotivate rich people. Here is some research on commercial properties, which would in theory be more competitive than residential. It shows that 80-90% of any tax increase is covered by an increase in rent. https://mitcre.mit.edu/news/blog/can-landlords-really-pass-higher-property-taxes-tenants https://mitcre.mit.edu/news/blog/can-landlords-really-pass-h... And of course many landlord resources say to just build it in. "The best way to protect yourself from taking a hit is to plan ahead. Plan for a tax increase every single year and adjust your rents accordingly. Build the tax increase into your rent and allow for future rent increases. A planned annual rent increase will allow you to stay ahead of tax increases instead of being caught off guard and behind." https://commonsenselandlording.com/property-taxes-rental-property/ https://commonsenselandlording.com/property-taxes-rental-pro...
jjav 5y ago
> >As for rent, the property owners just pass the cost on to the tenants by increasing rent > Rents would either remain unchanged or go down. The rent must cover all the costs of the property (+ some profit). If any cost goes up, the rent will go up by at least that much. Anything else is wishful thinking. If the costs go up so much that it's no longer possible to rent because nobody can afford it, that still won't make the rent go down because the owner isn't going to start taking a loss on it for fun. Instead, they'll sell the property and now it is off the rental market for good.
- ClumsyPilot 5y ago
  "If the costs go up so much that it's no longer possible to rent because nobody can afford it, that still won't make the rent go down because the owner isn't going to start taking a loss on it for fun. Instead, they'll sell the property and now it is off the rental market for good." What do you mean it's off the rental market? The house doesn't dissapear. Either the next owner rents the house out, so nothing has changed, or they live in the house which means that someone who previously had to rent is now a homeowner. Either nothing changed or it's an improvement. What is this weired attitude anyway, laws and markets change all the time and sometimes I have to eat a loss, are landlord some kind of divine nobility that never does?
  - jjav 5y ago
    > What do you mean it's off the rental market? The house doesn't dissapear. I mean it's no longer available to renters. If it's no longer affordable to rent out, the alternative is to sell it off to someone who wants to live in it themselves. Of course the house itelf doesn't disappear, but the number of units in the rental market for that town now went down. That's fine if those who were considering renting that unit are just as happy buying it as a homeowner. But I see many people saying they only want to rent, so for that audience, the rental supply went down. > What is this weired attitude anyway, laws and markets change all the time and sometimes I have to eat a loss, are landlord some kind of divine nobility that never does? I don't understand this comment. What I'm saying is that if the landlord find that renting out becomes unprofitable, they'll simply get out of that situation by selling it off.
mrep 5y ago
Basically every city in the world is growing and thus demand is increasing. If you increase costs and make it unprofitable to build, nobody is going to build until the rising demand increases rent to make it profitable.

by pydry 5y ago

giantg2 5y ago

"I dont magic myself a raise because income tax goes up. It works the same for landlords. If supply and demand remains unchanged, prices remain unchanged." What you're missing is that the market floor get universally pushed up. There's no competition from cheaper places because they all increased their rent to cover the new coat so they can still make their same margin. The demand is still there because people still need a place to live. "The only change I could forsee to affect either is previously empty properties being put up for rent" Any numbers on that, or are you just going to keep claiming it's a big enough vacant supply to significantly affect prices? "They'd really love for that to be how it works and sometimes they pretend it is." This is still tied to the previous comment. If the number of vacancies are not sufficient, then supply is adequately constrained to just increase the prices to cover costs. Because, again, this increase moves the market floor.

lurgburg 5y ago
> they all increased their rent Why would they not have done this before, if they could? Landlords aren't trying to maintain some fixed margin, they want as much as possible, always.
- giantg2 5y ago
  Because of competition. They can't all conspire together to price fix (or if they do they could be arrested).
  - lurgburg 5y ago
    Writing in context of preceding comment, which seemed to be predicated on them having a special capacity to raise prices in response to land taxes. I did wonder briefly if a land tax might decrease competition => higher prices, but then I recalled that the supply of land is fixed.
    - giantg2 5y ago
      If it's s limited resource which people require (shelters), the price (rent) will be quite elastic. There will still be competition if the taxes go up. Competition is what prevents the price from rising unnecessary. The floor for all the competitors went up because taxes went up and they all want to stay profitable. They aren't going to take loss, so they raise rent to cover it. Buying won't look very attractive either because the tax increase raises those costs, and if it's as significant as they other poster wanted (to affect rich people) then it will likely exceed the $10k SALT deduction limit. This SALT deduction is part of how they penalize landlords already, which is just passed on in the rent payments. This is part of the reason renting is more expensive than buying (comparing just monthly payments), in addition to management fees, profit, and repair/renovation reserves.
- majormajor 5y ago
  The last few cities I've lived in have seen 10+ straight years of rent increases (with a brief drop then rapid spike again from COVID) so... they do already do this?
  - lurgburg 5y ago
    Writing in the context of preceding comment. Landlords increase prices as much as they're able, they don't decline to increase when they could to maintain some fixed margin. I'm not saying they're generally unable to rise prices in general, but that they have no special additional capacity to raise prices in response to land taxes.
    - giantg2 5y ago
      "but that they have no special additional capacity to raise prices in response to land taxes." How so? If all landlords now have a significant new cost, why would they not raise rent to cover it? This seems to say they cover 80-90% of tax increases through rent increases. And commercial properties should be more competitive. https://mitcre.mit.edu/news/blog/can-landlords-really-pass-higher-property-taxes-tenants https://mitcre.mit.edu/news/blog/can-landlords-really-pass-h...
pydry 5y ago
>What you're missing is that the market floor get universally pushed up. There's no competition from cheaper places because they all increased their rent to cover the new coat so they can still make their same margin. You're saying that it doesnt matter if supply and demand remains unchanged, rent goes up coz every landlord independently decided that it does?
- giantg2 5y ago
  Not that they decided it does, but generally that they all had to in order to stay profitable. Part of this is due to the othwr commenter's suggested goal that the rise in rates be significant enough to demotivate rich people. Here is some research on commercial properties, which would in theory be more competitive than residential. It shows that 80-90% of any tax increase is covered by an increase in rent. https://mitcre.mit.edu/news/blog/can-landlords-really-pass-higher-property-taxes-tenants https://mitcre.mit.edu/news/blog/can-landlords-really-pass-h... And of course many landlord resources say to just build it in. "The best way to protect yourself from taking a hit is to plan ahead. Plan for a tax increase every single year and adjust your rents accordingly. Build the tax increase into your rent and allow for future rent increases. A planned annual rent increase will allow you to stay ahead of tax increases instead of being caught off guard and behind." https://commonsenselandlording.com/property-taxes-rental-property/ https://commonsenselandlording.com/property-taxes-rental-pro...

jjav 5y ago

> >As for rent, the property owners just pass the cost on to the tenants by increasing rent > Rents would either remain unchanged or go down. The rent must cover all the costs of the property (+ some profit). If any cost goes up, the rent will go up by at least that much. Anything else is wishful thinking. If the costs go up so much that it's no longer possible to rent because nobody can afford it, that still won't make the rent go down because the owner isn't going to start taking a loss on it for fun. Instead, they'll sell the property and now it is off the rental market for good.

ClumsyPilot 5y ago
"If the costs go up so much that it's no longer possible to rent because nobody can afford it, that still won't make the rent go down because the owner isn't going to start taking a loss on it for fun. Instead, they'll sell the property and now it is off the rental market for good." What do you mean it's off the rental market? The house doesn't dissapear. Either the next owner rents the house out, so nothing has changed, or they live in the house which means that someone who previously had to rent is now a homeowner. Either nothing changed or it's an improvement. What is this weired attitude anyway, laws and markets change all the time and sometimes I have to eat a loss, are landlord some kind of divine nobility that never does?
- jjav 5y ago
  > What do you mean it's off the rental market? The house doesn't dissapear. I mean it's no longer available to renters. If it's no longer affordable to rent out, the alternative is to sell it off to someone who wants to live in it themselves. Of course the house itelf doesn't disappear, but the number of units in the rental market for that town now went down. That's fine if those who were considering renting that unit are just as happy buying it as a homeowner. But I see many people saying they only want to rent, so for that audience, the rental supply went down. > What is this weired attitude anyway, laws and markets change all the time and sometimes I have to eat a loss, are landlord some kind of divine nobility that never does? I don't understand this comment. What I'm saying is that if the landlord find that renting out becomes unprofitable, they'll simply get out of that situation by selling it off.

mrep 5y ago

Basically every city in the world is growing and thus demand is increasing. If you increase costs and make it unprofitable to build, nobody is going to build until the rising demand increases rent to make it profitable.