4 ms·

You have no ability to question your accuser, because your accuser is a machine. The source code is proprietary. The data chain is secret. You have no ability t

You have no ability to question your accuser, because your accuser is a machine. The source code is proprietary. The data chain is secret. You have no ability to meaningfully audit it to see if it actually works or is making a lot of false positives.

ensignavenger 5y ago
Regular speed-guns have the same issues, though.
- hunterb123 5y ago
  You can face your accuser (the traffic cop) and you can challenge the calibration/accuracy of their radar/lidar gun. If you challenge the accuracy they have to prove it was tuned recently (usually 6 months~) prior to issuing the ticket and tested the day of (usually). There IS an audit trail for of certificates and logs of tuning for radar guns so they can prove it in court if challenged. There is NOT an audit trail for traffic cams because the companies don't expose enough information to audit. If you challenge a traffic ticket from a red light camera, you will usually win because they can't prove you guilty.
cmeacham98 5y ago
What shitty red light cameras are these where the data is all secret? In my city, tickets from red light cameras include a video of the incident, which clearly shows the car and traffic light. Is that really how it works elsewhere, they just send you a ticket saying "we caught you running a red light, please pay fine"? What happens if you show up to court to contest, can't you just point out they have literally no evidence?
- chickenpotpie 5y ago
  it is extremely easy to edit a green light to a red light, just partially delay the feed. Data is meaningless.
  - sodality2 5y ago
    That implies malicious intent rather than a bug causing a false positive.
  - amf12 5y ago
    > it is extremely easy to edit a green light to a red light, just partially delay the feed. Data is meaningless. It is extremely easy to tamper with most evidence, and there are ways to detect tampering.
  - clusterfish 5y ago
    If they actually did it at scale they would run into conflicting dashcam footage very quickly, and the whole conspiracy would go belly up before bearing any fruit. If you think data is meaningless we should also remove police cruisers' dashcams and stop the rollout of body cams, I guess? Those aren't conspiracy-proof either.
- causalmodels 5y ago
  I'm not aware of governments just asking one to pay a fine. The thing that really bothers me is that it allows the state to perform legal action at scale. If a city, let's say Chicago, just started sending people ticket how many would just pay it? From what I've seen [0], my guess would be a lot. [0] https://chicago.cbslocal.com/2021/07/29/chicago-speed-camera-sign-time-mistakes/ https://chicago.cbslocal.com/2021/07/29/chicago-speed-camera...
  - cmeacham98 5y ago
    I agree red light cameras are problematic for other reasons, but parent's claim specifically was that they were unconstitutional because the evidence can't be inspected.

ensignavenger 5y ago

Regular speed-guns have the same issues, though.

hunterb123 5y ago
You can face your accuser (the traffic cop) and you can challenge the calibration/accuracy of their radar/lidar gun. If you challenge the accuracy they have to prove it was tuned recently (usually 6 months~) prior to issuing the ticket and tested the day of (usually). There IS an audit trail for of certificates and logs of tuning for radar guns so they can prove it in court if challenged. There is NOT an audit trail for traffic cams because the companies don't expose enough information to audit. If you challenge a traffic ticket from a red light camera, you will usually win because they can't prove you guilty.

cmeacham98 5y ago

What shitty red light cameras are these where the data is all secret? In my city, tickets from red light cameras include a video of the incident, which clearly shows the car and traffic light. Is that really how it works elsewhere, they just send you a ticket saying "we caught you running a red light, please pay fine"? What happens if you show up to court to contest, can't you just point out they have literally no evidence?

chickenpotpie 5y ago
it is extremely easy to edit a green light to a red light, just partially delay the feed. Data is meaningless.
- sodality2 5y ago
  That implies malicious intent rather than a bug causing a false positive.
- amf12 5y ago
  > it is extremely easy to edit a green light to a red light, just partially delay the feed. Data is meaningless. It is extremely easy to tamper with most evidence, and there are ways to detect tampering.
- clusterfish 5y ago
  If they actually did it at scale they would run into conflicting dashcam footage very quickly, and the whole conspiracy would go belly up before bearing any fruit. If you think data is meaningless we should also remove police cruisers' dashcams and stop the rollout of body cams, I guess? Those aren't conspiracy-proof either.
causalmodels 5y ago
I'm not aware of governments just asking one to pay a fine. The thing that really bothers me is that it allows the state to perform legal action at scale. If a city, let's say Chicago, just started sending people ticket how many would just pay it? From what I've seen [0], my guess would be a lot. [0] https://chicago.cbslocal.com/2021/07/29/chicago-speed-camera-sign-time-mistakes/ https://chicago.cbslocal.com/2021/07/29/chicago-speed-camera...
- cmeacham98 5y ago
  I agree red light cameras are problematic for other reasons, but parent's claim specifically was that they were unconstitutional because the evidence can't be inspected.