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Furthermore, the variety of projects that are enabling convergence on their applications is growing at a fast rate, with KDE, GNOME, Nitrux, Elementary and Jing

Furthermore, the variety of projects that are enabling convergence on their applications is growing at a fast rate, with KDE, GNOME, Nitrux, Elementary and Jingling among others shifting their interest on mobile-ready and touch-friendly applications for the future of Linux. So, in other words, Linux desktop applications are going the same way as "desktop" applications on Windows and MacOS. I put "desktop" in sarcasm quotes, because so many of these apps are just upscaled mobile apps, which retain the giant buttons and low information density suitable for a 6" touchscreen even when they're scaled up to a 24" monitor. If this is the future, I hate it.

fsflover 5y ago
No, GNU/Linux phones can run desktop applications scaled down in such a way that they stay usable. See examples here: https://puri.sm/posts/converging-on-convergence-pureos-is-convergent-welcome-to-the-future/ https://puri.sm/posts/converging-on-convergence-pureos-is-co....
- hughrr 5y ago
  Yeh that worked out really well for the last two platforms who tried it… Microsoft produced apps that no one used because they were horrible on all devices. Apple conceded defeat and we have different interfaces on each device class.
  - fsflover 5y ago
    They did not scale down desktop apps. They created completely incompatible mobile OSes. https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/community-wiki/-/wikis/Frequently-Asked-Questions#83-why-will-the-librem-5-succeed-when-previous-linux-phones-failed https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/community-wiki/-/wikis/Freque...
  - zozbot234 5y ago
    The recent "scaling down" of Linux Gtk+ apps also encompasses "diferent interfaces". Look at some of the convergence examples, and you'll see all sorts of widgets merge, move around and disappear behind "alternate" views as window sizes shrink, then come back as the windows enlarge again. It's a fully responsive interface that merges both styles of interaction seamlessly.
    - hughrr 5y ago
      A certain $2tn+ company can't manage to pull that off and actually has different interfaces for each platform. We're making some big assumption that responsive interfaces actually work and don't push poor compromises on all users at the end of the day. This is another UX death march like flat interfaces without cues and mystery meat.
      - fsflover 5y ago
        > We're making some big assumption that responsive interfaces actually work I think is pretty clear that they work. Look at responsive web pages.
        hughrr 5y ago
        The thing is they don't always. And in some cases they actually completely fall apart.
        account42 5y ago
        How many responsive web pages do you know that don't compromise in some way?
        fsflover 5y ago
        There is nothing in the world which is not compromised "in some way".
  - quanticle 5y ago
    Apple conceded defeat and we have different interfaces on each device class. Apple hasn't conceded defeat. Every release of MacOS becomes more and more like iOS. Apple keeps releasing tools, such as Catalyst, to make it easier for iOS developers to get their apps to run on MacOS. Apple is very much pursuing convergence between iOS and MacOS, to the latter's detriment.
    - hughrr 5y ago
      You can run any app on any platform. It's just going to be a shit experience. Apple want you to get 80% of the way there, then do the last 20% of tailoring it to the device. There isn't some magic unicorn toolkit which can do that last 20%.
      - quanticle 5y ago
        That's exactly the problem! There's this idea that, if we automate the 80%, developers will do the last 20%, and we'll end up in a land of milk and honey, where mobile apps scale up their information density and rearrange their UIs to suit the high precision pointing devices and large screens that come with desktops and laptops. In practice that never happens. Developers make their mobile app, use the automated tool to make it into 80% of a desktop app, hit the publish button and proudly advertise, "Hey, look, we have a desktop app now!" Maybe it's fine for Apple and Google to ruin their desktop UIs like that. Maybe they don't care, or, more likely, they think that catering to the vast majority of users who are on mobile is an acceptable tradeoff for alienating the few of us who still prefer desktops as their primary computing device. But why does Linux have to tread that same path?
        InvertedRhodium 5y ago
        > But why does Linux have to tread that same path? It doesn't, which is the beauty of open source. If enough people value this as much as you clearly do, there will always be options out there. And, if there aren't enough people then you always have the (less practical, but still doable) option of rolling your own.
        5y ago
- pinephoneguy 5y ago
  I just run them with unit scaling. The digitizer is accurate enough, especially if you live an OSK window open and stick to keyboard shortcuts. I prefer the extra screen realestate.
shams93 5y ago
This is why we still need html/css for interfaces, so the PWA with wasm still seems to be the best way to distribute an app that works anywhere, or PWA for mobile and electron for desktop with wasm enabling very high performance client features.
- quanticle 5y ago
  I disagree with the whole premise of having a single app for both desktop and mobile. Even if you give developers the tools to make a good app for desktop and mobile, they won't. They'll make the mobile app first, ensure that it runs on desktop, and then dust off their hands and call it a day. To quote the Purism blogpost cited elsewhere in this thread: Web designers now have toolboxes to design web pages, which they adjust for mobile or desktop in order to get easier readability and use. Except, web designers don't adjust web pages for mobile or web. They adjust pages for mobile, and then what you end up in a desktop web browser is acres of white space and buttons that are the size of your head. The way I see it, this is Linux UI framework developers chasing Apple, Microsoft and Google's taillights yet again. Sure, Apple, Google and Microsoft don't care, but that's because they're trillion dollar companies and they have to go where the majority of the customers are. But why does Linux have to go there too? Why can't Linux UI framework developers focus on an under-appreciated niche (desktop "power" users) which are increasingly neglected by the megacorps?
  - fsflover 5y ago
    But it already generally works on the web. Why wouldn't it work on Linux given good tools (https://blogs.gnome.org/alexm/2021/12/31/libadwaita-1-0 https://blogs.gnome.org/alexm/2021/12/31/libadwaita-1-0)?
  - leveraction 5y ago
    > Except, web designers don't adjust web pages for mobile or web. They adjust pages for mobile, and then what you end up in a desktop web browser is acres of white space and buttons that are the size of your head. I had to laugh at this. I am writing a PWA now and this is definitely an issue in "desktop mode". The thing is though, with giant monitors (I develop on a pair of 4k curved ultra-wides) there is so much room that most non-game apps just don't need all that much space. If you do use it all, it becomes cumbersome to move the mouse all the way to the corners because it is so far away. And even if you did use it, there would still be acres of unused space most likely, white or some other color. I suppose you could do a true re-write and put multiple mobile screen onto one desktop screen, but that would be a very heavy lift and in the case of a saas app that will largely be used on mobile, it is pretty easy to understand why it never gets done. Bad cost-benefit and it would delay your launch.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
hawski 5y ago
I am sure that there will be a successful counter-culture. I do not have Suckless folks in mind or others that are minimalist and Unix philosophy above all. Don't get me wrong - I like most of their software, but I'm too lazy to be a purist. I would love to see more GUIs augmented by command line, but with a bit more GUI and mouse then the latter. I think I'm not alone, but a movement or a desktop environment that unites people thinking in that similar way is not there yet. I'm sure it will come.
go_elmo 5y ago
cli > gui
- oblio 5y ago
  For some things. Not for discoverability or visual things.

fsflover 5y ago

No, GNU/Linux phones can run desktop applications scaled down in such a way that they stay usable. See examples here: https://puri.sm/posts/converging-on-convergence-pureos-is-convergent-welcome-to-the-future/ https://puri.sm/posts/converging-on-convergence-pureos-is-co....

hughrr 5y ago
Yeh that worked out really well for the last two platforms who tried it… Microsoft produced apps that no one used because they were horrible on all devices. Apple conceded defeat and we have different interfaces on each device class.
- fsflover 5y ago
  They did not scale down desktop apps. They created completely incompatible mobile OSes. https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/community-wiki/-/wikis/Frequently-Asked-Questions#83-why-will-the-librem-5-succeed-when-previous-linux-phones-failed https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/community-wiki/-/wikis/Freque...
- zozbot234 5y ago
  The recent "scaling down" of Linux Gtk+ apps also encompasses "diferent interfaces". Look at some of the convergence examples, and you'll see all sorts of widgets merge, move around and disappear behind "alternate" views as window sizes shrink, then come back as the windows enlarge again. It's a fully responsive interface that merges both styles of interaction seamlessly.
  - hughrr 5y ago
    A certain $2tn+ company can't manage to pull that off and actually has different interfaces for each platform. We're making some big assumption that responsive interfaces actually work and don't push poor compromises on all users at the end of the day. This is another UX death march like flat interfaces without cues and mystery meat.
    - fsflover 5y ago
      > We're making some big assumption that responsive interfaces actually work I think is pretty clear that they work. Look at responsive web pages.
      - hughrr 5y ago
        The thing is they don't always. And in some cases they actually completely fall apart.
      - account42 5y ago
        How many responsive web pages do you know that don't compromise in some way?
        fsflover 5y ago
        There is nothing in the world which is not compromised "in some way".
- quanticle 5y ago
  Apple conceded defeat and we have different interfaces on each device class. Apple hasn't conceded defeat. Every release of MacOS becomes more and more like iOS. Apple keeps releasing tools, such as Catalyst, to make it easier for iOS developers to get their apps to run on MacOS. Apple is very much pursuing convergence between iOS and MacOS, to the latter's detriment.
  - hughrr 5y ago
    You can run any app on any platform. It's just going to be a shit experience. Apple want you to get 80% of the way there, then do the last 20% of tailoring it to the device. There isn't some magic unicorn toolkit which can do that last 20%.
    - quanticle 5y ago
      That's exactly the problem! There's this idea that, if we automate the 80%, developers will do the last 20%, and we'll end up in a land of milk and honey, where mobile apps scale up their information density and rearrange their UIs to suit the high precision pointing devices and large screens that come with desktops and laptops. In practice that never happens. Developers make their mobile app, use the automated tool to make it into 80% of a desktop app, hit the publish button and proudly advertise, "Hey, look, we have a desktop app now!" Maybe it's fine for Apple and Google to ruin their desktop UIs like that. Maybe they don't care, or, more likely, they think that catering to the vast majority of users who are on mobile is an acceptable tradeoff for alienating the few of us who still prefer desktops as their primary computing device. But why does Linux have to tread that same path?
      - InvertedRhodium 5y ago
        > But why does Linux have to tread that same path? It doesn't, which is the beauty of open source. If enough people value this as much as you clearly do, there will always be options out there. And, if there aren't enough people then you always have the (less practical, but still doable) option of rolling your own.
      - 5y ago
pinephoneguy 5y ago
I just run them with unit scaling. The digitizer is accurate enough, especially if you live an OSK window open and stick to keyboard shortcuts. I prefer the extra screen realestate.

shams93 5y ago

This is why we still need html/css for interfaces, so the PWA with wasm still seems to be the best way to distribute an app that works anywhere, or PWA for mobile and electron for desktop with wasm enabling very high performance client features.

quanticle 5y ago
I disagree with the whole premise of having a single app for both desktop and mobile. Even if you give developers the tools to make a good app for desktop and mobile, they won't. They'll make the mobile app first, ensure that it runs on desktop, and then dust off their hands and call it a day. To quote the Purism blogpost cited elsewhere in this thread: Web designers now have toolboxes to design web pages, which they adjust for mobile or desktop in order to get easier readability and use. Except, web designers don't adjust web pages for mobile or web. They adjust pages for mobile, and then what you end up in a desktop web browser is acres of white space and buttons that are the size of your head. The way I see it, this is Linux UI framework developers chasing Apple, Microsoft and Google's taillights yet again. Sure, Apple, Google and Microsoft don't care, but that's because they're trillion dollar companies and they have to go where the majority of the customers are. But why does Linux have to go there too? Why can't Linux UI framework developers focus on an under-appreciated niche (desktop "power" users) which are increasingly neglected by the megacorps?
- fsflover 5y ago
  But it already generally works on the web. Why wouldn't it work on Linux given good tools (https://blogs.gnome.org/alexm/2021/12/31/libadwaita-1-0 https://blogs.gnome.org/alexm/2021/12/31/libadwaita-1-0)?
- leveraction 5y ago
  > Except, web designers don't adjust web pages for mobile or web. They adjust pages for mobile, and then what you end up in a desktop web browser is acres of white space and buttons that are the size of your head. I had to laugh at this. I am writing a PWA now and this is definitely an issue in "desktop mode". The thing is though, with giant monitors (I develop on a pair of 4k curved ultra-wides) there is so much room that most non-game apps just don't need all that much space. If you do use it all, it becomes cumbersome to move the mouse all the way to the corners because it is so far away. And even if you did use it, there would still be acres of unused space most likely, white or some other color. I suppose you could do a true re-write and put multiple mobile screen onto one desktop screen, but that would be a very heavy lift and in the case of a saas app that will largely be used on mobile, it is pretty easy to understand why it never gets done. Bad cost-benefit and it would delay your launch.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

hawski 5y ago

I am sure that there will be a successful counter-culture. I do not have Suckless folks in mind or others that are minimalist and Unix philosophy above all. Don't get me wrong - I like most of their software, but I'm too lazy to be a purist. I would love to see more GUIs augmented by command line, but with a bit more GUI and mouse then the latter. I think I'm not alone, but a movement or a desktop environment that unites people thinking in that similar way is not there yet. I'm sure it will come.

go_elmo 5y ago

cli > gui

oblio 5y ago
For some things. Not for discoverability or visual things.