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London doesn't have this problem if I am not mistaken. But housing is very very expensive still. So much that a 3 bedroom 120sqm apartment can be more than 6 mi

London doesn't have this problem if I am not mistaken. But housing is very very expensive still. So much that a 3 bedroom 120sqm apartment can be more than 6 million dollars even outside Central London depending on the area.

jefftk 5y ago
In London, if someone purchased all the properties on a block could they level the block and build something 15 stories tall? No: it has lots of regulations that restrict construction. (Not saying that allowing this is necessarily good or bad, but it's definitely something London has)
- actuator 5y ago
  Yes, this definitely wouldn't be allowed there in some areas but isn't this true for most cities. I am all for more housing. But all areas in a city don't need to be redeveloped with high rises.
- nicoburns 5y ago
  No, and for good reason: if everything is high-rises then housing becomes too dense. The problem isn't lack of housing density. The problem is too many people wanting to live in a small area. We need to reduce demand (by spreading over a wider area - more cities and rural areas too) rather than increase supply.
  - arcticbull 5y ago
    I dont think there's any justification for this position, really. Density in Macau is 20,000 people per square kilometer. Parts of the NY/NJ metro area like Guttenberg are 22,000. San Francisco is 6,600. Hong Kong is 6,300. London is 5,700. There is a ton of room to increase density before we start reducing demand.
    - clpm4j 5y ago
      High density is not desirable to affluent families when the alternative could be a 3,000sqft single family home with a sizeable backyard in San Francisco, and these people tend to make the rules.
      - nicoburns 5y ago
        Worth noting that the average property size in London in 705sqft.
      - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
        You don't get that in Central London, you get a 400 sqft apartment and no yard and people are lining up to pay over the odds.
      - arcticbull 5y ago
        You sure? The 2000 sqft apartments at 181 Fremont are going for $7M. [1] If you want to live in a secluded detached single-family with a huge yard, live outside of town. [1] https://www.redfin.com/CA/San-Francisco/181-Fremont-St-94105/unit-62B/home/167299465 https://www.redfin.com/CA/San-Francisco/181-Fremont-St-94105...
        clpm4j 5y ago
        You can get a 3 bedroom SFH in Noe Valley for under $4m. Outer Sunset for under $2.5m. I'd be hard pressed to find any family that would ever want to buy a new condo anywhere near downtown SF - that's a very particular type of buyer.
buscoquadnary 5y ago
From everything I've heard London has some of most restrictive, bureaucracy laden, red tape filled city building processes out there. I've heard that all of England has "councils" at the local level that basically operate as HOAs with the full force of the law. I don't know that I'd pick anywhere in the UK as a shining example of ease of building.
- actuator 5y ago
  But then councils can compete with each other, the ones outside even do so. There are tons of high rises coming far from Central London but still reasonable commute to center, but that doesn't necessarily reduce the price of properties inside. Area has a lot to do with prices and unless these outer areas become self sufficient so much that Central London or rich boroughs lose lustre, the inner areas will command a high price.
  - iso1631 5y ago
    While demand outstrips supply as now, prices increase. These have a ceiling of the maximum people can afford. If everyone is given a £10k payrise, then rents will increase by £10k, and buying will increase by whatever an extra £10k a year will get you on the mortgage. Until supply increases enough so that demand is no longer artificially constrained that will be the case. Now there are places where supply is higher than demand, like inner cities in places like Stoke, and prices there are low enough that even a single earner on minimum wage with 6 months salary as a deposit can afford a 2 bed house [0] [0] https://www.rightmove.co.uk/house-prices/detailMatching.html?prop=114196907&sale=14460331&country=england https://www.rightmove.co.uk/house-prices/detailMatching.html...
davidw 5y ago
Tokyo is actually a place where you see this in practice, from what I read. Prices are fairly stable due to lots of new construction.
- mikem170 5y ago
  This is true, zoning in Japan [0] makes a lot of sense. Instead of single family homes they allow triplexes, even a percentage of space dedicated to a low-impact business (like hair stylist, etc). They have setback rules so that you can't put second/third floor up against your neighbors property line blocking the sun all day. They dedicate nearby spaces for commercial and hi-rise buildings, making it possible to live near where you work. And there is dedicated space for factories and other industrial buildings. Single-use single family zoning is being eliminated in some areas of the U.S., allowing accessory dwelling units to be built, etc. Even California just passed a low changed R1 to R3 for all cities in the state (pending court cases, I assume). [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfm2xCKOCNk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfm2xCKOCNk
- ggm 5y ago
  There is a cultural aspect as well. I am told Japanese home owners dislike buying secondhand, if they have the option to knockdown and rebuild.
  - bobthepanda 5y ago
    this is partially because of the earthquake codes. a major earthquake tends to happen once every generation, and building codes tend to get updated after them. If you buy a house not compliant with the current rules it is more likely to kill you; most damage in the 1995 Hanshin earthquake, for example, occurred to buildings predating the 1981 building code.
- leoedin 5y ago
  As well as a general culture which is very willing to build new buildings, the population of Japan has been pretty stable, even falling a bit, since the early 90s. I wonder if that hasn't had a really impact on the fact they've more-or-less escaped the rampant house price inflation seen in other countries. Since 1990, Japan's population has risen by 2%, the UK has grown 17%, the US by 32%, Canada by 37%. That growth is bound to put a significant pressure on property prices.

jefftk 5y ago

In London, if someone purchased all the properties on a block could they level the block and build something 15 stories tall? No: it has lots of regulations that restrict construction. (Not saying that allowing this is necessarily good or bad, but it's definitely something London has)

actuator 5y ago
Yes, this definitely wouldn't be allowed there in some areas but isn't this true for most cities. I am all for more housing. But all areas in a city don't need to be redeveloped with high rises.
nicoburns 5y ago
No, and for good reason: if everything is high-rises then housing becomes too dense. The problem isn't lack of housing density. The problem is too many people wanting to live in a small area. We need to reduce demand (by spreading over a wider area - more cities and rural areas too) rather than increase supply.
- arcticbull 5y ago
  I dont think there's any justification for this position, really. Density in Macau is 20,000 people per square kilometer. Parts of the NY/NJ metro area like Guttenberg are 22,000. San Francisco is 6,600. Hong Kong is 6,300. London is 5,700. There is a ton of room to increase density before we start reducing demand.
  - clpm4j 5y ago
    High density is not desirable to affluent families when the alternative could be a 3,000sqft single family home with a sizeable backyard in San Francisco, and these people tend to make the rules.
    - nicoburns 5y ago
      Worth noting that the average property size in London in 705sqft.
    - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
      You don't get that in Central London, you get a 400 sqft apartment and no yard and people are lining up to pay over the odds.
    - arcticbull 5y ago
      You sure? The 2000 sqft apartments at 181 Fremont are going for $7M. [1] If you want to live in a secluded detached single-family with a huge yard, live outside of town. [1] https://www.redfin.com/CA/San-Francisco/181-Fremont-St-94105/unit-62B/home/167299465 https://www.redfin.com/CA/San-Francisco/181-Fremont-St-94105...
      - clpm4j 5y ago
        You can get a 3 bedroom SFH in Noe Valley for under $4m. Outer Sunset for under $2.5m. I'd be hard pressed to find any family that would ever want to buy a new condo anywhere near downtown SF - that's a very particular type of buyer.

buscoquadnary 5y ago

From everything I've heard London has some of most restrictive, bureaucracy laden, red tape filled city building processes out there. I've heard that all of England has "councils" at the local level that basically operate as HOAs with the full force of the law. I don't know that I'd pick anywhere in the UK as a shining example of ease of building.

actuator 5y ago
But then councils can compete with each other, the ones outside even do so. There are tons of high rises coming far from Central London but still reasonable commute to center, but that doesn't necessarily reduce the price of properties inside. Area has a lot to do with prices and unless these outer areas become self sufficient so much that Central London or rich boroughs lose lustre, the inner areas will command a high price.
- iso1631 5y ago
  While demand outstrips supply as now, prices increase. These have a ceiling of the maximum people can afford. If everyone is given a £10k payrise, then rents will increase by £10k, and buying will increase by whatever an extra £10k a year will get you on the mortgage. Until supply increases enough so that demand is no longer artificially constrained that will be the case. Now there are places where supply is higher than demand, like inner cities in places like Stoke, and prices there are low enough that even a single earner on minimum wage with 6 months salary as a deposit can afford a 2 bed house [0] [0] https://www.rightmove.co.uk/house-prices/detailMatching.html?prop=114196907&sale=14460331&country=england https://www.rightmove.co.uk/house-prices/detailMatching.html...

davidw 5y ago

Tokyo is actually a place where you see this in practice, from what I read. Prices are fairly stable due to lots of new construction.

mikem170 5y ago
This is true, zoning in Japan [0] makes a lot of sense. Instead of single family homes they allow triplexes, even a percentage of space dedicated to a low-impact business (like hair stylist, etc). They have setback rules so that you can't put second/third floor up against your neighbors property line blocking the sun all day. They dedicate nearby spaces for commercial and hi-rise buildings, making it possible to live near where you work. And there is dedicated space for factories and other industrial buildings. Single-use single family zoning is being eliminated in some areas of the U.S., allowing accessory dwelling units to be built, etc. Even California just passed a low changed R1 to R3 for all cities in the state (pending court cases, I assume). [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfm2xCKOCNk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfm2xCKOCNk
ggm 5y ago
There is a cultural aspect as well. I am told Japanese home owners dislike buying secondhand, if they have the option to knockdown and rebuild.
- bobthepanda 5y ago
  this is partially because of the earthquake codes. a major earthquake tends to happen once every generation, and building codes tend to get updated after them. If you buy a house not compliant with the current rules it is more likely to kill you; most damage in the 1995 Hanshin earthquake, for example, occurred to buildings predating the 1981 building code.
leoedin 5y ago
As well as a general culture which is very willing to build new buildings, the population of Japan has been pretty stable, even falling a bit, since the early 90s. I wonder if that hasn't had a really impact on the fact they've more-or-less escaped the rampant house price inflation seen in other countries. Since 1990, Japan's population has risen by 2%, the UK has grown 17%, the US by 32%, Canada by 37%. That growth is bound to put a significant pressure on property prices.