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>They got exposed as Marxists, and everyone started distancing themselves, thankfully. What does that mean though? Why would Marxism be a signal for avoiding t

>They got exposed as Marxists, and everyone started distancing themselves, thankfully. What does that mean though? Why would Marxism be a signal for avoiding the movement? I don't know anything about Marxism.

mantas 5y ago
Ideology responsible for millions of deaths by USSR, Communist China, Pol Pot and other similar regimes.
engineer_22 5y ago
In its own terms, Marxism seeks an end to alienation and exploitation. That is to say, the Marxist vision is to create a utopian society. Heaven on Earth. When heaven doesn't come, you need a scapegoat, and the Marxists start killing people. Ukrainian pogroms, Great Leap Forward, Khmer Rouge, there's enough examples to be convinced that Marxism is inherently genocidal.
wyre 5y ago
Because in America anything that isn’t Capitalism is viewed as the enemy after decades of propaganda against the USSR. Marxism is socioeconomic analysis of class structures. Marx and Engel’s book Capital is largely a critique of capitalism. Vladimir Lenin expanded on these ideas with methods to transition to a communist society (another thing Marx wrote about). After Lenin died Stalin took power over the USSR and committed atrocities against mankind, fighting Nazis, and leading the country through an industrial revolution. Mao expanded on these ideas in China and is still on track with their 100 year plan written ~70 years ago (as far as I know). Dismissing Marxism is good for capital and the ruling class as it views BLM as its enemy.
- kofejnik 5y ago
  The whole notion of class struggle only serves to divide people and allow marxists to seize power. Lenin was not less evil than Stalin. USSR really really sucked (I was born in USSR). Kids, don't do Marxism, not even once.
- unmole 5y ago
  > After Lenin died Stalin took power over the USSR and committed atrocities against mankind The Red Terror campaign under Lenin killed over a million people. Let's not pretend Stalin is the only one responsible for atrocities. > Mao expanded on these ideas in China Under Mao's brain-dead economic policies, China suffered the worst man made famine in history. China's recent acendency only came about after Deng Xiaoping's far reaching economic reforms. The idea that China is still following Mao's plan is ridiculous.
  - raidicy 5y ago
    I am like a baby when it comes to political and cultural thought. I apologize if my questions are stupid. Is Marxism a form of Socialism? And are the failings of the implementations throughout history a direct result of the ideology itself?
- hajile 5y ago
  Read “The Gulag Archipelago” It will fundamentally change how you view that system. It shows that the Bolshevik Revolution really was bottom up. They implemented the teachings of Marx down to the letter. The violence and death was considered necessary by Marx himself. The gulags started under Lenin and were simply continued under Stalin. Most interestingly, people were so indoctrinated into the Marxist religion that they could be charged for a crime they knew they didn’t commit, be tortured for the required 6-9 months, sentenced to 10-25 years in a Gulag, find out that almost everyone else was innocent (often just captured to fulfill the prison quota), somehow survive the process, and come out the other side still singing the praises of the people and system that did all this to them. Marxism is the most dangerous cult the world has ever seen and is responsible for more death and suffering than any other organization that has ever existed.
  - raidicy 5y ago
    I would like to preface my comment the idea that I have limited knowledge of this entire field. So it seems that leaders who have tried to implement Marxist ideas have committed great atrocities. Did they commit those atrocities in the name of Marxism, or were they corrupt and used Marxism as a guise for totalitarist actions? Because class struggle is such a Hot Topic in Marxism, is the above the reason why the idea of class struggle is completely dismissed in America? The reason I ask is because there is a good long history of employers taking advantage of employees. And those employers having government support to do so. Although, most of my examples come from 1850-1920, there are still some issues that working people face today from their employers and the government. Unions aside, did the atrocities committed by Marxists contribute to stigma against questioning the status quo?
    - hajile 5y ago
      The people who lived through those times almost universally agree with its claims. The modern Marxists in the US claim they do not know what they are talking about. Personally, I was thoroughly convinced after reading for myself. Read or listen to The Gulag Archipelego and decide for yourself. Given the HUGE political push in this direction, you should at least become acquainted with those who went there before, what happened to them, and why they believe it happened. This book tells stories of hundreds/thousands of people who survived that system and passed them on to be written in this book (which was itself something worthy of outright execution in Russia at that time).
- raidicy 5y ago
  Please understand my lack of education in this subject. According to other comments Marxist governments have committed heinous crimes. I have asked questions about whether or not those crimes are the result of Marxism or the people who enforced it. I understand that there is a large stigmatisation against criticizing capitalism and the free market in America. Capitalism and free market politics seem, as I have no real education for this type of thing, as though they've become symbols of America. And symbols and ideology are usually venerated. I am left to wonder a few things: If Marxism truly is responsible for suffering at scale, then why are there people still fervently attached to the idea? Is it a lack of historical context? Is it the same kind of idea why some people become neo-nazis; some romanticized ideation how the world should work? Further despite any of this, why do people still espouse the idea of class distinctions? (This sounds like a very right sounding question). Regardless of any political or economic theory or ideas, I personally think that there is a distinction between the interests of people who work for a wage ,the "average"person, and the people who govern / own property/production/govern. To dismiss this would ignore the whole industry of lobbying. With which the entire point is to further corporate interest in government. Whereas these interests may not necessarily be maligned against the average person, they are not in the interest of the average person. I apologize for my ramblings as I don't have anybody to discuss this with. My final question becomes this: is Marxism a flawed system but still has some good ideas in it?
  - no_time 5y ago
    >If Marxism truly is responsible for suffering at scale, then why are there people still fervently attached to the idea? Is it a lack of historical context? As a citizen of a former eastern bloc country, there is more than one reason. The first and most straightforward is the group who held jobs under socialism that barely created any economic value. Since being unemployed for a longer period of time was a criminal offense, a lot of these "bullshit jobs" were created to keep everyone occupied. These people had a rude awakening when a free market based economy had no need for their work. The second group of people that are deeply disillusioned by the current status quo for various reasons. This group is much harder to define as their ideals combine both economic and social reform. I recommend reading Theodore Kacynski's Industrial Society and It's Future where he articulates his opinions better than I could in this reply. One notable catchphrase of this group is "real communism hasn't been tried" which is followed up by denying the atrocities committed by the soviets. It's also a brand and national symbol in some places like you mentioned with capitalism. China is a de-facto capitalist dictatorship that is only socialist in name. >is Marxism a flawed system but still has some good ideas in it? Of course it has some good ideas. Nothing is black and white. And besides, one man's seized property is another man's government issued living space :^)
akomtu 5y ago
If you read the story of famous marxists on wikipedia (Lenin & Mao for example), you'll see a lot of parallels with the movement. The BLM org corresponds to Red Guard probably: the core force of the movement. That's why I think they've chosen a fist as their symbol (can you imagine a peaceful organisation rooting for unity using this symbol?). And just like other marxist regimes, those at the top quickly give up ideals, and start enriching themselves (I'm talking about that house shopping spree of the former BLMGN leader).
YATA0 5y ago
Marxism is a failed 19th century socioeconomic/political philosophy with a nine figure body count. Like Nazism, it is to be avoided at all costs.
dragonwriter 5y ago
> Why would Marxism be a signal for avoiding the movement? Because lots of people have been affected by propaganda (both Leninist and capitalist) equating Marxism with Leninism (and it's descendants), and Leninism has a legitimately horrifying track record.
- raidicy 5y ago
  So is Marxism a victim of being connflated with people masquerading as Marxist committing atrocities?

mantas 5y ago

Ideology responsible for millions of deaths by USSR, Communist China, Pol Pot and other similar regimes.

engineer_22 5y ago

In its own terms, Marxism seeks an end to alienation and exploitation. That is to say, the Marxist vision is to create a utopian society. Heaven on Earth. When heaven doesn't come, you need a scapegoat, and the Marxists start killing people. Ukrainian pogroms, Great Leap Forward, Khmer Rouge, there's enough examples to be convinced that Marxism is inherently genocidal.

wyre 5y ago

Because in America anything that isn’t Capitalism is viewed as the enemy after decades of propaganda against the USSR. Marxism is socioeconomic analysis of class structures. Marx and Engel’s book Capital is largely a critique of capitalism. Vladimir Lenin expanded on these ideas with methods to transition to a communist society (another thing Marx wrote about). After Lenin died Stalin took power over the USSR and committed atrocities against mankind, fighting Nazis, and leading the country through an industrial revolution. Mao expanded on these ideas in China and is still on track with their 100 year plan written ~70 years ago (as far as I know). Dismissing Marxism is good for capital and the ruling class as it views BLM as its enemy.

kofejnik 5y ago
The whole notion of class struggle only serves to divide people and allow marxists to seize power. Lenin was not less evil than Stalin. USSR really really sucked (I was born in USSR). Kids, don't do Marxism, not even once.
unmole 5y ago
> After Lenin died Stalin took power over the USSR and committed atrocities against mankind The Red Terror campaign under Lenin killed over a million people. Let's not pretend Stalin is the only one responsible for atrocities. > Mao expanded on these ideas in China Under Mao's brain-dead economic policies, China suffered the worst man made famine in history. China's recent acendency only came about after Deng Xiaoping's far reaching economic reforms. The idea that China is still following Mao's plan is ridiculous.
- raidicy 5y ago
  I am like a baby when it comes to political and cultural thought. I apologize if my questions are stupid. Is Marxism a form of Socialism? And are the failings of the implementations throughout history a direct result of the ideology itself?
hajile 5y ago
Read “The Gulag Archipelago” It will fundamentally change how you view that system. It shows that the Bolshevik Revolution really was bottom up. They implemented the teachings of Marx down to the letter. The violence and death was considered necessary by Marx himself. The gulags started under Lenin and were simply continued under Stalin. Most interestingly, people were so indoctrinated into the Marxist religion that they could be charged for a crime they knew they didn’t commit, be tortured for the required 6-9 months, sentenced to 10-25 years in a Gulag, find out that almost everyone else was innocent (often just captured to fulfill the prison quota), somehow survive the process, and come out the other side still singing the praises of the people and system that did all this to them. Marxism is the most dangerous cult the world has ever seen and is responsible for more death and suffering than any other organization that has ever existed.
- raidicy 5y ago
  I would like to preface my comment the idea that I have limited knowledge of this entire field. So it seems that leaders who have tried to implement Marxist ideas have committed great atrocities. Did they commit those atrocities in the name of Marxism, or were they corrupt and used Marxism as a guise for totalitarist actions? Because class struggle is such a Hot Topic in Marxism, is the above the reason why the idea of class struggle is completely dismissed in America? The reason I ask is because there is a good long history of employers taking advantage of employees. And those employers having government support to do so. Although, most of my examples come from 1850-1920, there are still some issues that working people face today from their employers and the government. Unions aside, did the atrocities committed by Marxists contribute to stigma against questioning the status quo?
  - hajile 5y ago
    The people who lived through those times almost universally agree with its claims. The modern Marxists in the US claim they do not know what they are talking about. Personally, I was thoroughly convinced after reading for myself. Read or listen to The Gulag Archipelego and decide for yourself. Given the HUGE political push in this direction, you should at least become acquainted with those who went there before, what happened to them, and why they believe it happened. This book tells stories of hundreds/thousands of people who survived that system and passed them on to be written in this book (which was itself something worthy of outright execution in Russia at that time).
raidicy 5y ago
Please understand my lack of education in this subject. According to other comments Marxist governments have committed heinous crimes. I have asked questions about whether or not those crimes are the result of Marxism or the people who enforced it. I understand that there is a large stigmatisation against criticizing capitalism and the free market in America. Capitalism and free market politics seem, as I have no real education for this type of thing, as though they've become symbols of America. And symbols and ideology are usually venerated. I am left to wonder a few things: If Marxism truly is responsible for suffering at scale, then why are there people still fervently attached to the idea? Is it a lack of historical context? Is it the same kind of idea why some people become neo-nazis; some romanticized ideation how the world should work? Further despite any of this, why do people still espouse the idea of class distinctions? (This sounds like a very right sounding question). Regardless of any political or economic theory or ideas, I personally think that there is a distinction between the interests of people who work for a wage ,the "average"person, and the people who govern / own property/production/govern. To dismiss this would ignore the whole industry of lobbying. With which the entire point is to further corporate interest in government. Whereas these interests may not necessarily be maligned against the average person, they are not in the interest of the average person. I apologize for my ramblings as I don't have anybody to discuss this with. My final question becomes this: is Marxism a flawed system but still has some good ideas in it?
- no_time 5y ago
  >If Marxism truly is responsible for suffering at scale, then why are there people still fervently attached to the idea? Is it a lack of historical context? As a citizen of a former eastern bloc country, there is more than one reason. The first and most straightforward is the group who held jobs under socialism that barely created any economic value. Since being unemployed for a longer period of time was a criminal offense, a lot of these "bullshit jobs" were created to keep everyone occupied. These people had a rude awakening when a free market based economy had no need for their work. The second group of people that are deeply disillusioned by the current status quo for various reasons. This group is much harder to define as their ideals combine both economic and social reform. I recommend reading Theodore Kacynski's Industrial Society and It's Future where he articulates his opinions better than I could in this reply. One notable catchphrase of this group is "real communism hasn't been tried" which is followed up by denying the atrocities committed by the soviets. It's also a brand and national symbol in some places like you mentioned with capitalism. China is a de-facto capitalist dictatorship that is only socialist in name. >is Marxism a flawed system but still has some good ideas in it? Of course it has some good ideas. Nothing is black and white. And besides, one man's seized property is another man's government issued living space :^)

akomtu 5y ago

If you read the story of famous marxists on wikipedia (Lenin & Mao for example), you'll see a lot of parallels with the movement. The BLM org corresponds to Red Guard probably: the core force of the movement. That's why I think they've chosen a fist as their symbol (can you imagine a peaceful organisation rooting for unity using this symbol?). And just like other marxist regimes, those at the top quickly give up ideals, and start enriching themselves (I'm talking about that house shopping spree of the former BLMGN leader).

YATA0 5y ago

Marxism is a failed 19th century socioeconomic/political philosophy with a nine figure body count. Like Nazism, it is to be avoided at all costs.

dragonwriter 5y ago

> Why would Marxism be a signal for avoiding the movement? Because lots of people have been affected by propaganda (both Leninist and capitalist) equating Marxism with Leninism (and it's descendants), and Leninism has a legitimately horrifying track record.

raidicy 5y ago
So is Marxism a victim of being connflated with people masquerading as Marxist committing atrocities?